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Honestly, calling yourself an idiot is a huge turnoff. You automatically make me want to not cheer you on. It makes me feel like you deserve to fail. Bill gates

by fmora 16y ago

Honestly, calling yourself an idiot is a huge turnoff. You automatically make me want to not cheer you on. It makes me feel like you deserve to fail. Bill gates, Steve Jobs, Paul Grahams and many other famous people have had failures before becoming successful but you have never heard them call themselves idiots (as far as I'm aware). If nothing else they would call those failures "early attempts at success". And the worst thing is that what you did cannot really be called a failure so what is wrong with you? Even if you think that you are no longer an idiot the title and article gives waves of no confidence. My advise, please never call yourself an idiot; your subconscious will start to believe you're an idiot and so will other people. Is difficult to describe but just remembering your article I feel repulsion. I wonder whether other people feel like this. Anybody else or do I just have issues?

edanm 16y ago
Can't speak for anyone else, but I disagree. Title notwithstanding, the article is a nice piece of self-reflection. The author clearly looked at his semi-successful past, and managed to see both what he did right, and what he did wrong. Not many people are as able (or willing) to dig deep like that, much less share those thoughts with others. I'm happy he did so so that I have a chance to learn, and I also think it takes great confidence to admit what you did wrong.
- fmora 16y ago
  Nothing wrong with learning from your failures. I do it all the time. I Think back about the times that I screw up and that if I'd had more experience things would have turned different. But hindsight is 20-20 so calling yourself an idiot just because you had no experience and were learning is unfair to yourself. What is the necessity of calling himself an idiot and then trying to convince us that he is an idiot. It smells a lot like low confidence and I'm not sure I want to be around him if he feels that way. The paper could have been written as lessons learned from his first startup. The way he portrays himself is just completely wrong. I noticed he has other articles and I just cannot force myself to read them. He did to good a job in his article convincing me that he was an idiot. How do I know he still is not one. He probably is not because of what he did (he made a good amount of money) but emotionally I still feel like he is an idiot. Weird huh?
  - petercooper 16y ago
    It smells a lot like low confidence I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve. From endless private conversations and all of the entrepreneurs I'm friends with, I'm somewhere in the middle confidence-wise, but others are better at projecting an image of greater confidence. I'm a humble and extremely introverted engineer and just don't project an image that's either above or below my station. I accept that this is a flaw in certain walks of life, particularly business. He probably is not because of what he did (he made a good amount of money) but emotionally I still feel like he is an idiot. Weird huh? Sure, I'm still an idiot in lots of things. There's always more to learn, always more wisdom to extract from situations, always better ways to deal with things. I think I feel as much uncertainty or intimidation as anyone who tackles difficult work - I'm just not scared to admit my shortcomings. As I said before, I think this might just be a clash in our cultures and approaches to life. Do you feel the same way about Derek Sivers? He recently wrote about assuming he's always "below average" in things. His thought process is similar to mine: http://sivers.org/below-average http://sivers.org/below-average
    - edanm 16y ago
      I think I know the difference between fmora and me. I forgot the article's title (I'm an idiot) before reading the article, so everything I read came off as a lot of honest introspection. Just like with Derek Sivers' article. On the other hand, it seems to me that others, who go into the article with the idea that it's going to be a lot of low-confidence self-pity type statements, approach it with a different attitude. Obviously I can't speak for fmora or anyone else, but the impression I get from his statements make me think the title of the article is the main sticking point; taking it too literally colors the rest of the article in a much more negative light. On that note, Derek's article is titled in a "better" way, since saying "I'm below average" has nowhere near the negative undertones that saying "I'm an idiot" has. fmora - Would you agree with what I'm saying? Or am I misinterpreting?
      - fmora 16y ago
        I think you got it. Calling yourself and idiot has huge negative undertones for me. I do understand that smart people tend to undervalue themselves. Trying to convince everybody you are an idiot (or that you were an idiot) just didn't sit well with me.
lsc 16y ago
culturally speaking, are you primarily a business person or primarily an Engineer? In Engineering that sort of self-deprecation is considered polite. False humility is /essential/ for Engineering types to get along without our massive egos causing unproductive fights. You quite often see "But I might be wrong" at the end or "Perhaps" at the beginning of very detailed, very correct mailing lists... it's just there to soften the "You are wrong" blow. Of course, this is quite different from the business world, where people seem to select for massive egos. It's interesting, really, how my world has changed as I've learned to fake confidence as well as I can fake humility. (of course, in both cases, I think everyone knows you are faking it, and nobody cares. It's sort of like wearing culturally appropriate clothing. investment bankers don't show up in T shirts, and coders don't show up in suits.) Really, this is one of the things I find most interesting about the hacker news crowd... so many are halfway between the worlds of Engineering and Business that you see these two diametrically opposed cultures mixing, sometimes producing something that is more useful than either one by itself.
Eliezer 16y ago
> Honestly, calling yourself an idiot is a huge turnoff. Really? I call it honesty, but maybe I'm just an idiot.
petercooper 16y ago
You make some good points, but I think this is a clash of cultures than intentions. The word "idiot", to me, isn't as harsh as it seems to be to you, and I'm using it in a very subject specific sense. If you date the wrong girl for a few years and ignore her bad traits, you might later say you "were a fool" for loving her while not extending that assertion to your entire life. I'm saying I was an idiot at business, though not at the technology or dealing with the customers. Further, though, I'm English, and this sort of self deprecating speech is characteristically European. Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome for more info. It's mostly not "the done thing" to boast about minor achievements. Derek Sivers (of CDBaby and now a multi millionaire) approached the overall topic well: http://sivers.org/below-average http://sivers.org/below-average Anyway, I totally get where you're coming from, but I also think you may have read too much into a little half-hearted humility. Update: I've just found an article that scientifically supports your hunch: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100729122330.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100729122330.ht...
- fmora 16y ago
  Interesting article. That is probably what I was reacting to. Anyway, I hope you didn't think I was personally trying to offend you.
  - petercooper 16y ago
    No, don't worry about that. If seeing a surprising, alternative viewpoint I can learn from means reading some blunt language, it's worth it. I don't think I'd write the post any differently despite learning something about your perspective, but.. who knows, it might make me think twice at some point in the future :-)

by fmora 16y ago

edanm 16y ago

Can't speak for anyone else, but I disagree. Title notwithstanding, the article is a nice piece of self-reflection. The author clearly looked at his semi-successful past, and managed to see both what he did right, and what he did wrong. Not many people are as able (or willing) to dig deep like that, much less share those thoughts with others. I'm happy he did so so that I have a chance to learn, and I also think it takes great confidence to admit what you did wrong.

fmora 16y ago
Nothing wrong with learning from your failures. I do it all the time. I Think back about the times that I screw up and that if I'd had more experience things would have turned different. But hindsight is 20-20 so calling yourself an idiot just because you had no experience and were learning is unfair to yourself. What is the necessity of calling himself an idiot and then trying to convince us that he is an idiot. It smells a lot like low confidence and I'm not sure I want to be around him if he feels that way. The paper could have been written as lessons learned from his first startup. The way he portrays himself is just completely wrong. I noticed he has other articles and I just cannot force myself to read them. He did to good a job in his article convincing me that he was an idiot. How do I know he still is not one. He probably is not because of what he did (he made a good amount of money) but emotionally I still feel like he is an idiot. Weird huh?
- petercooper 16y ago
  It smells a lot like low confidence I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve. From endless private conversations and all of the entrepreneurs I'm friends with, I'm somewhere in the middle confidence-wise, but others are better at projecting an image of greater confidence. I'm a humble and extremely introverted engineer and just don't project an image that's either above or below my station. I accept that this is a flaw in certain walks of life, particularly business. He probably is not because of what he did (he made a good amount of money) but emotionally I still feel like he is an idiot. Weird huh? Sure, I'm still an idiot in lots of things. There's always more to learn, always more wisdom to extract from situations, always better ways to deal with things. I think I feel as much uncertainty or intimidation as anyone who tackles difficult work - I'm just not scared to admit my shortcomings. As I said before, I think this might just be a clash in our cultures and approaches to life. Do you feel the same way about Derek Sivers? He recently wrote about assuming he's always "below average" in things. His thought process is similar to mine: http://sivers.org/below-average http://sivers.org/below-average
  - edanm 16y ago
    I think I know the difference between fmora and me. I forgot the article's title (I'm an idiot) before reading the article, so everything I read came off as a lot of honest introspection. Just like with Derek Sivers' article. On the other hand, it seems to me that others, who go into the article with the idea that it's going to be a lot of low-confidence self-pity type statements, approach it with a different attitude. Obviously I can't speak for fmora or anyone else, but the impression I get from his statements make me think the title of the article is the main sticking point; taking it too literally colors the rest of the article in a much more negative light. On that note, Derek's article is titled in a "better" way, since saying "I'm below average" has nowhere near the negative undertones that saying "I'm an idiot" has. fmora - Would you agree with what I'm saying? Or am I misinterpreting?
    - fmora 16y ago
      I think you got it. Calling yourself and idiot has huge negative undertones for me. I do understand that smart people tend to undervalue themselves. Trying to convince everybody you are an idiot (or that you were an idiot) just didn't sit well with me.

lsc 16y ago

culturally speaking, are you primarily a business person or primarily an Engineer? In Engineering that sort of self-deprecation is considered polite. False humility is /essential/ for Engineering types to get along without our massive egos causing unproductive fights. You quite often see "But I might be wrong" at the end or "Perhaps" at the beginning of very detailed, very correct mailing lists... it's just there to soften the "You are wrong" blow. Of course, this is quite different from the business world, where people seem to select for massive egos. It's interesting, really, how my world has changed as I've learned to fake confidence as well as I can fake humility. (of course, in both cases, I think everyone knows you are faking it, and nobody cares. It's sort of like wearing culturally appropriate clothing. investment bankers don't show up in T shirts, and coders don't show up in suits.) Really, this is one of the things I find most interesting about the hacker news crowd... so many are halfway between the worlds of Engineering and Business that you see these two diametrically opposed cultures mixing, sometimes producing something that is more useful than either one by itself.

Eliezer 16y ago

> Honestly, calling yourself an idiot is a huge turnoff. Really? I call it honesty, but maybe I'm just an idiot.

petercooper 16y ago

You make some good points, but I think this is a clash of cultures than intentions. The word "idiot", to me, isn't as harsh as it seems to be to you, and I'm using it in a very subject specific sense. If you date the wrong girl for a few years and ignore her bad traits, you might later say you "were a fool" for loving her while not extending that assertion to your entire life. I'm saying I was an idiot at business, though not at the technology or dealing with the customers. Further, though, I'm English, and this sort of self deprecating speech is characteristically European. Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome for more info. It's mostly not "the done thing" to boast about minor achievements. Derek Sivers (of CDBaby and now a multi millionaire) approached the overall topic well: http://sivers.org/below-average http://sivers.org/below-average Anyway, I totally get where you're coming from, but I also think you may have read too much into a little half-hearted humility. Update: I've just found an article that scientifically supports your hunch: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100729122330.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100729122330.ht...

fmora 16y ago
Interesting article. That is probably what I was reacting to. Anyway, I hope you didn't think I was personally trying to offend you.
- petercooper 16y ago
  No, don't worry about that. If seeing a surprising, alternative viewpoint I can learn from means reading some blunt language, it's worth it. I don't think I'd write the post any differently despite learning something about your perspective, but.. who knows, it might make me think twice at some point in the future :-)