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> As Bitfinex has become more and more desperate, they have listed more and more crypto-currencies of questionable value, such as EOS/IOTA/ETP and so on. As pe

> As Bitfinex has become more and more desperate, they have listed more and more crypto-currencies of questionable value, such as EOS/IOTA/ETP and so on. As per coinmarketcap.com: EOS is ranked 19, 442 million in marketcap IOTA is ranked 11, 950 million in marketcap ETP is ranked 70, 73 million in marketcap Anyone can throw some light on what these coins really are? Additionally, BTC markets: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets shows Bitfinex raking in over 15% of the current market volume. I wonder what will happen to the price if they go under. While I agree to most of the article, specially the Tethers part, Debt to Equity swap is a real thing and not a Ponzi scheme: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/debtequityswap.asp http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/debtequityswap.asp Though whether the equity shares are worth as much as Bitfinex is claiming them to be is an another question.

raverbashing 9y ago
> Debt to Equity swap is a real thing and not a Ponzi scheme Is it when your equity's value does not match the face value If you disagree I'll sell you 1% of equity in my lemonade stand for $1000
- thisisit 9y ago
  Hence, the caveat: > Though whether the equity shares are worth as much as Bitfinex is claiming them to be is an another question. I am not sure but they might be restricting the IOUs or shares to trade on their platform. So they are raking in commissions on the shares being traded. In which case it is surely a scam. But to be pedantic it is not a Ponzi scheme.
  - mannykannot 9y ago
    As the author has made a strong argument that the equity shares are in fact worthless, the caveat is not much of one. To be precise, it is not the debt-to-equity swap that the author is comparing to a Ponzi scheme, but the part where it is suggested they get their money back by selling on to a second round of 'investors' - but pedantic arguments over what to call it can only distract from the central issue of fraud.
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
Swapping deposit-like liabilities for equity and then encouraging the secondary trading of that debt is banned in the United States for good reason. Bitfinex’s actions do not seem like either a debt-for-equity swap nor a Ponzi scheme, but plain and simple fraud.
redka 9y ago
IOTA actually seems pretty revolutionary. I don't think it's a finished product yet but if you want some info then it's a DAG ("tangle")[1] instead of a blockchain and offers 0 fees and possibly huge scalability. There are some products already using it: RuuviTag[2], Bosh XDK Iot[3], PoC ElaadNL charging station[4], Modum[5]. Once they prove they can go without the "Coordinator"[6] I'm going to be completely sold on the project. [1] https://iota.org/IOTA_Whitepaper.pdf https://iota.org/IOTA_Whitepaper.pdf [2] https://lab.ruuvi.com/iota/ https://lab.ruuvi.com/iota/ [3] https://xdk.bosch-connectivity.com/ https://xdk.bosch-connectivity.com/ [4] https://medium.com/@harmvandenbrink/how-elaadnl-built-a-poc-charge-station-running-fully-on-iota-and-iota-only-e16ed4c4d4d5 https://medium.com/@harmvandenbrink/how-elaadnl-built-a-poc-... [5] https://www.reddit.com/r/Iota/comments/6vl57m/iota_modum_ask_us_anything/dm14etf/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Iota/comments/6vl57m/iota_modum_ask... [6] https://domschiener.gitbooks.io/iota-guide/content/chapter1/current-role-of-the-coordinator.html https://domschiener.gitbooks.io/iota-guide/content/chapter1/...
- espadrine 9y ago
  The principles could be relevant (although I haven't verified (or read an independent review of) the proofs). However, at least the execution is dubious: not only was a major cryptographic vulnerability found a few months ago[0], it highlighted that 1. they made their own unproven crypto hash, which is a red flag, (in production, you should always prefer crypto that has survived many years of cryptanalysis) and 2. they were really not up-to-date on cryptanalysis techniques, as being vulnerable to differential cryptanalysis is, as Bruce Schneier puts it, "a rookie mistake". Worse than that, they seem to rely on security through obscurity, purposefully making it hard to analyse their systems by making it base 3 (instead of the obvious base 2 that all of practical computer science relies on). Finally, their justification for the coordinator is also a red flag[1]. [0] https://medium.com/@neha/cryptographic-vulnerabilities-in-iota-9a6a9ddc4367 https://medium.com/@neha/cryptographic-vulnerabilities-in-io... [1] https://medium.com/@ercwl/iota-is-centralized-6289246e7b4d https://medium.com/@ercwl/iota-is-centralized-6289246e7b4d
  - dutchbrit 9y ago
    The coordinator will be open-sourced and in all seriousness, even bitcoin had a sort of coordinator in the beginning, people aren't even forced to use it/can bypass it, but it's recommended to use it for now. So your statement isn't 100% valid. Regarding crypto, you can read their response & reasoning here: https://blog.iota.org/curl-disclosure-beyond-the-headline-1814048d08ef https://blog.iota.org/curl-disclosure-beyond-the-headline-18... "The replacement Kerl hash function is unmodified KECCAK-384 that only converts its input and output from/to 243 trits to 48 bytes using basic two’s complement. KECCAK-384 is well vetted and researched."
Geee 9y ago
All of those are legit cryptocurrencies.
nadam 9y ago
The FUD against EOS is really strong. It is interesting that despite the FUD, its valuation is very big too. The FUD is mostly about the business behind EOS, as a technical project is solid C++ code with well thought out architecture. In fact this is the kind of project where as I got deeper into it I believe that it can work. In case of most other projects when I dig deeper, I become more and more sceptic. The reason is probably that the CTO makes this project based on his experiences in Bitshares and Steemit, so the decisions in EOS are relatively mature compared to most crypto projects. Also I find the CTO one of the most talented and most practical developer/architect in the space. (Maybe I am biased as I am a performance optimization geek, and EOS is mostly about high performance) With EOS I regret one thing: that its valuation is so high already. I still invested into it, but I would have invested much more if its valuation would be lower. TLDR: as an investment, it is not my biggest investment, but as a technology it is my favourite in the crypto space.
- nadam 9y ago
  Multiple downvotes on my comment proves my point. There is serious hate on the EOS project. No matter how much you downvote me, EOS is still doing one of the most promising research and development on how to improve crpyto network throughput and latency. Ethereum research on sharding is also interesting, but seemingly there are extremely hard problems to be solveed there with way more complex software than EOS.
  - quickben 9y ago
    I didn't downvote or upvote you. I had no idea what EOS is until I googled it. I have zero bitcoins (and some token gridcoins from the last month, but in donating CPU time since it started as SETI). The above being said, it looks like you are in your own EOS bubble. You should zoom out of it, and I'd suggest further zoom out of the crypto coin hype, look at the digital coins objectively and decide if you want to lose your money, or risk increasing it. That being said, some starting points for you: Coins are trying to become money. We have tons of money, in fact we never had more historically. After the last few crashes, the CBs dumped primes near zero (to avoid Max style of societial developments), and we even have more money around (cheap debts etc). But, now we are doing fine. BIS had a report weeks ago, outlining money contractions, salaries going up, cheap workforce from China+India joining the global economy 20 years ago stabilizing, and all that. Cheap money, on this planet (so , not in the crypto world, or USA, or Luxemburg, but on this planet) will start contracting. Crypto valuations, TAM and market caps are as high because people have a lot of extra fiat to dump into it (or in real estate, iPhones, high margin cars, etc). As money becomes less obtainable, take a guess where they'll be drawn out from (well, Canadian real estate, but other stuff too). So, after all of the above being said; I'm really glad you have a job as a c++ optimization expert in coin attempt number 3 by your CTO, but I suggest you remain sceptical about it success prospects.
skinnymuch 9y ago
Not entirely sure. But a friend and I have day traded IOTA as an example quite a bit. We have no illusions (well I don't) about how potentially shady this all is. People start talking in crypto circles. IOTA goes up double digits that says. Then usually just goes back to where it was a few days later. I assume none have any real value. Though IOTA seems like it has different spins on what it is doing and is trying to do real things with the coin. I've heard positives and negatives. I'm not entirely familiar with the details. Regardless for that reason and in general risk reasons, i wouldn't stake a claim in IOTA or almost small altcoins like the ones you mentioned for long.

raverbashing 9y ago

> Debt to Equity swap is a real thing and not a Ponzi scheme Is it when your equity's value does not match the face value If you disagree I'll sell you 1% of equity in my lemonade stand for $1000

thisisit 9y ago
Hence, the caveat: > Though whether the equity shares are worth as much as Bitfinex is claiming them to be is an another question. I am not sure but they might be restricting the IOUs or shares to trade on their platform. So they are raking in commissions on the shares being traded. In which case it is surely a scam. But to be pedantic it is not a Ponzi scheme.
- mannykannot 9y ago
  As the author has made a strong argument that the equity shares are in fact worthless, the caveat is not much of one. To be precise, it is not the debt-to-equity swap that the author is comparing to a Ponzi scheme, but the part where it is suggested they get their money back by selling on to a second round of 'investors' - but pedantic arguments over what to call it can only distract from the central issue of fraud.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

Swapping deposit-like liabilities for equity and then encouraging the secondary trading of that debt is banned in the United States for good reason. Bitfinex’s actions do not seem like either a debt-for-equity swap nor a Ponzi scheme, but plain and simple fraud.

redka 9y ago

IOTA actually seems pretty revolutionary. I don't think it's a finished product yet but if you want some info then it's a DAG ("tangle")[1] instead of a blockchain and offers 0 fees and possibly huge scalability. There are some products already using it: RuuviTag[2], Bosh XDK Iot[3], PoC ElaadNL charging station[4], Modum[5]. Once they prove they can go without the "Coordinator"[6] I'm going to be completely sold on the project. [1] https://iota.org/IOTA_Whitepaper.pdf https://iota.org/IOTA_Whitepaper.pdf [2] https://lab.ruuvi.com/iota/ https://lab.ruuvi.com/iota/ [3] https://xdk.bosch-connectivity.com/ https://xdk.bosch-connectivity.com/ [4] https://medium.com/@harmvandenbrink/how-elaadnl-built-a-poc-charge-station-running-fully-on-iota-and-iota-only-e16ed4c4d4d5 https://medium.com/@harmvandenbrink/how-elaadnl-built-a-poc-... [5] https://www.reddit.com/r/Iota/comments/6vl57m/iota_modum_ask_us_anything/dm14etf/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Iota/comments/6vl57m/iota_modum_ask... [6] https://domschiener.gitbooks.io/iota-guide/content/chapter1/current-role-of-the-coordinator.html https://domschiener.gitbooks.io/iota-guide/content/chapter1/...

espadrine 9y ago
The principles could be relevant (although I haven't verified (or read an independent review of) the proofs). However, at least the execution is dubious: not only was a major cryptographic vulnerability found a few months ago[0], it highlighted that 1. they made their own unproven crypto hash, which is a red flag, (in production, you should always prefer crypto that has survived many years of cryptanalysis) and 2. they were really not up-to-date on cryptanalysis techniques, as being vulnerable to differential cryptanalysis is, as Bruce Schneier puts it, "a rookie mistake". Worse than that, they seem to rely on security through obscurity, purposefully making it hard to analyse their systems by making it base 3 (instead of the obvious base 2 that all of practical computer science relies on). Finally, their justification for the coordinator is also a red flag[1]. [0] https://medium.com/@neha/cryptographic-vulnerabilities-in-iota-9a6a9ddc4367 https://medium.com/@neha/cryptographic-vulnerabilities-in-io... [1] https://medium.com/@ercwl/iota-is-centralized-6289246e7b4d https://medium.com/@ercwl/iota-is-centralized-6289246e7b4d
- dutchbrit 9y ago
  The coordinator will be open-sourced and in all seriousness, even bitcoin had a sort of coordinator in the beginning, people aren't even forced to use it/can bypass it, but it's recommended to use it for now. So your statement isn't 100% valid. Regarding crypto, you can read their response & reasoning here: https://blog.iota.org/curl-disclosure-beyond-the-headline-1814048d08ef https://blog.iota.org/curl-disclosure-beyond-the-headline-18... "The replacement Kerl hash function is unmodified KECCAK-384 that only converts its input and output from/to 243 trits to 48 bytes using basic two’s complement. KECCAK-384 is well vetted and researched."

Geee 9y ago

All of those are legit cryptocurrencies.

nadam 9y ago

The FUD against EOS is really strong. It is interesting that despite the FUD, its valuation is very big too. The FUD is mostly about the business behind EOS, as a technical project is solid C++ code with well thought out architecture. In fact this is the kind of project where as I got deeper into it I believe that it can work. In case of most other projects when I dig deeper, I become more and more sceptic. The reason is probably that the CTO makes this project based on his experiences in Bitshares and Steemit, so the decisions in EOS are relatively mature compared to most crypto projects. Also I find the CTO one of the most talented and most practical developer/architect in the space. (Maybe I am biased as I am a performance optimization geek, and EOS is mostly about high performance) With EOS I regret one thing: that its valuation is so high already. I still invested into it, but I would have invested much more if its valuation would be lower. TLDR: as an investment, it is not my biggest investment, but as a technology it is my favourite in the crypto space.

nadam 9y ago
Multiple downvotes on my comment proves my point. There is serious hate on the EOS project. No matter how much you downvote me, EOS is still doing one of the most promising research and development on how to improve crpyto network throughput and latency. Ethereum research on sharding is also interesting, but seemingly there are extremely hard problems to be solveed there with way more complex software than EOS.
- quickben 9y ago
  I didn't downvote or upvote you. I had no idea what EOS is until I googled it. I have zero bitcoins (and some token gridcoins from the last month, but in donating CPU time since it started as SETI). The above being said, it looks like you are in your own EOS bubble. You should zoom out of it, and I'd suggest further zoom out of the crypto coin hype, look at the digital coins objectively and decide if you want to lose your money, or risk increasing it. That being said, some starting points for you: Coins are trying to become money. We have tons of money, in fact we never had more historically. After the last few crashes, the CBs dumped primes near zero (to avoid Max style of societial developments), and we even have more money around (cheap debts etc). But, now we are doing fine. BIS had a report weeks ago, outlining money contractions, salaries going up, cheap workforce from China+India joining the global economy 20 years ago stabilizing, and all that. Cheap money, on this planet (so , not in the crypto world, or USA, or Luxemburg, but on this planet) will start contracting. Crypto valuations, TAM and market caps are as high because people have a lot of extra fiat to dump into it (or in real estate, iPhones, high margin cars, etc). As money becomes less obtainable, take a guess where they'll be drawn out from (well, Canadian real estate, but other stuff too). So, after all of the above being said; I'm really glad you have a job as a c++ optimization expert in coin attempt number 3 by your CTO, but I suggest you remain sceptical about it success prospects.

skinnymuch 9y ago

Not entirely sure. But a friend and I have day traded IOTA as an example quite a bit. We have no illusions (well I don't) about how potentially shady this all is. People start talking in crypto circles. IOTA goes up double digits that says. Then usually just goes back to where it was a few days later. I assume none have any real value. Though IOTA seems like it has different spins on what it is doing and is trying to do real things with the coin. I've heard positives and negatives. I'm not entirely familiar with the details. Regardless for that reason and in general risk reasons, i wouldn't stake a claim in IOTA or almost small altcoins like the ones you mentioned for long.