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With an implementation like Whonix, arguably the only safe and (relatively) easy way to use Tor, this exploit wouldn't have worked. The Tor Project's insistence

With an implementation like Whonix, arguably the only safe and (relatively) easy way to use Tor, this exploit wouldn't have worked. The Tor Project's insistence on placing ease of use above security is admirable and understandable, but it provides a very false sense of security for the majority of users, to the point where it can potentially be detrimental. We sometimes take for granted our intelligence in this domain and forget that the average Tor user doesn't know shit about opsec. Just last week I found out a relative has been exploring Tor behind a VPN, and try as I may, I couldn't make them understand what a MitM attack was. They just read from a random page on the internet that it was safer to use a VPN and didn't bother doing research because frankly, how would they know what to look for?

anonymous5133 9y ago
Most security advice is always dumbed down like that. "Always do this" "always do that" without actually explaining why or the risks of doing it etc.
mirimir 9y ago
Well, I recommend using Tor through VPN services. I worry more about ISPs doing MitM than VPNs. You have far more choice about VPNs than ISPs. Governments can pressure local ISPs far more easily than VPN services, which may do business from uncooperative jurisdictions. And mostly, it's just that the VPN provides another level of IP obscurity. If an adversary compromises Tor somehow, and learns your VPN exit IP, there's at least a chance that they won't get your ISP-assigned IP. And if you use nested VPN chains, the adversary would need information from multiple VPN providers. It's the same logic behind three-relay Tor circuits.
- kakarot 9y ago
  Point taken, but your ISP cannot middleman a connection between you and a hidden service given a proper configuration. Likewise, a VPN provider cannot theoretically see your encrypted TOR traffic, but there are many caveats to this and a feeling of real security is only deserved if you pay attention to your opsec and browsing habits. For the average, uninformed user, I rest easier at night recommending a direct connection to TOR. One less party to worry about. Security by obscurity is more of an afterthought and shouldn't be relied upon. The relative I mentioned was using a pretty shoddy VPN that I won't name here, but I definitely don't trust them. Of course, with a network as diverse as Tor, one user's threat model will vary significantly from another's. For example one might be chiefly worried about deanonymization while another might be more concerned with timing attacks. For some of these use cases, having a VPN layer is pretty reasonable, but for others, potentially detrimental.

anonymous5133 9y ago

Most security advice is always dumbed down like that. "Always do this" "always do that" without actually explaining why or the risks of doing it etc.

mirimir 9y ago

Well, I recommend using Tor through VPN services. I worry more about ISPs doing MitM than VPNs. You have far more choice about VPNs than ISPs. Governments can pressure local ISPs far more easily than VPN services, which may do business from uncooperative jurisdictions. And mostly, it's just that the VPN provides another level of IP obscurity. If an adversary compromises Tor somehow, and learns your VPN exit IP, there's at least a chance that they won't get your ISP-assigned IP. And if you use nested VPN chains, the adversary would need information from multiple VPN providers. It's the same logic behind three-relay Tor circuits.

kakarot 9y ago
Point taken, but your ISP cannot middleman a connection between you and a hidden service given a proper configuration. Likewise, a VPN provider cannot theoretically see your encrypted TOR traffic, but there are many caveats to this and a feeling of real security is only deserved if you pay attention to your opsec and browsing habits. For the average, uninformed user, I rest easier at night recommending a direct connection to TOR. One less party to worry about. Security by obscurity is more of an afterthought and shouldn't be relied upon. The relative I mentioned was using a pretty shoddy VPN that I won't name here, but I definitely don't trust them. Of course, with a network as diverse as Tor, one user's threat model will vary significantly from another's. For example one might be chiefly worried about deanonymization while another might be more concerned with timing attacks. For some of these use cases, having a VPN layer is pretty reasonable, but for others, potentially detrimental.