4 ms·

Anyone reminded of Alan Kay's way of presenting with Smalltalk? He always takes a moment to point out how horribly limiting PowerPoint is too. I recall reading

Anyone reminded of Alan Kay's way of presenting with Smalltalk? He always takes a moment to point out how horribly limiting PowerPoint is too. I recall reading about another alternative OS where the "desktop" was a zoomable canvas and files were opened by zooming in far enough. Presentations on that machine apparent were a simple matter or aligning files next to each other and scrolling.

Waterluvian 9y ago
Do you have an example? I'm interested.
- itronitron 9y ago
  sounds like Pad++ from UMD ... http://www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/pad++/ http://www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/pad++/
  - vanderZwan 9y ago
    Wasn't what I had in mind, but thanks for that! I'm interested in the history of UI experimentation, and this looks interesting.
sattoshi 9y ago
Sounds a lot like Prezi
eovwm23neuo 9y ago
I've watched a presentation done with an app that works like this and it's nauseating. All the zooming in and out gave me a headache. It was literally one of the worst presentations I've ever viewed.
- enzanki_ars 9y ago
  I am assuming you are referring to Prezi. I agree that Prezi is one of the worst presentation software out there. Both presenting, viewing, and creating one of those presentations is the worst.
  - vanderZwan 9y ago
    I think the main issue with Prezi-style presentations is that it demands too much skill to use properly. A better interface with sensible defaults and much less emphasis on wow-factor would help a lot here. Normal powerpoint "only" requires a basic awareness of composition and narrative coherence, which already is too much to ask in practice. To make good Prezi presentation you need to have the skills of a cinematographer/editor. Specifically, the skill of continuity editing[0] so your audience can follow what is going on. What we want is the calm, easy to read compositions of, say, Yasujirō Ozu or Wes Anderson, and Akira Kurasowa's sense of movement[1][2]. Instead everyone uses it in a way that it feels more like the worst aspects of Bayhem[3]. I still believe Prezi-like presentation tools have the potential to be good, because they could be used to map relationships in your narrative to spatial relationships. But that would require a) that you are aware of those relationships yourself and b) that you posses the skills to translate that into spatial compositions that are coherent. This is obviously an unrealistic demand, so instead the tools should assist you with that. It needs is an interface that helps users structure their story, with sensible default conversions. Maybe something like Treesheets[4], where you can create a tree-based hierarchy in your topics, and then a conversion of that to a spatial hierarchy that is easy to follow, and not a distraction from the actual narrative. The vertical slides in reveal.js are a step in the right direction, starting from the powerpoint side of the spectrum[5]. What we need a step in the right direction of the free-flowing Prezi side of presentations. At some point there will be a happy middle ground. EDIT: Maybe we should all just work our way through Pixar's storytelling course on Khan Academy[6] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuity_editing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuity_editing [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbXRpiVO1po https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbXRpiVO1po [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2THVvshvq0Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2THVvshvq0Q [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doaQC-S8de8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doaQC-S8de8 [4] http://strlen.com/treesheets/ http://strlen.com/treesheets/ [5] http://lab.hakim.se/reveal-js/#/ http://lab.hakim.se/reveal-js/#/ [6] https://www.khanacademy.org/partner-content/pixar/storytelling https://www.khanacademy.org/partner-content/pixar/storytelli...
pjtr 9y ago
Maybe the Oberon project Bluebottle OS[1] / AOS / A2? It's a ZUI[2] desktop. There seem to be only very few example videos[3] online. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluebottle_OS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluebottle_OS [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooming_user_interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooming_user_interface [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe0ZdzO_urU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe0ZdzO_urU
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  That was it! Thank you! I thought it was something to do with Oberon but just searching for that turned up nothing. Thanks to your hint I found the post where I read about it: http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2009/04/22/oberon/ http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2009/04/22/oberon/ The referenced rant at the beginning is now off-line, but still available through archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20090416033922/http://stevenf.tumblr.com:80/post/94591835/warning-a-long-rambly-exploration-of-the-state https://web.archive.org/web/20090416033922/http://stevenf.tu... Now, I'm not saying Bluebottle is great to work with, but the idea is interesting, and I think some of the good bits could be made to work better with modern IxD sensibilities applied to it, especially with touch-screens.
smcl 9y ago
Have you got an example of Alan Kay's use of smalltalk for presenting? I'm quite curious how it would look - my googling turned up a few videos but nothing particularly out of the ordinary (indeed it wasn't even obvious that he wasn't using powerpoint)
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  In this video, around the 38 minute mark, he shows a video in a slide, and I believe a few "slides" later runs a bridge simulation: https://vimeo.com/82301919 https://vimeo.com/82301919 (I can't watch this with sound right now, so I'm not sure if he mentions using SmallTalk to present here) But as you can see, you're right: it's not obvious at all. Despite the valid complaints raised in the linked article, the structure imposed by slides is helpful in its simplicity; plus the audience knows how to "read" them, which is also important. The point however is that he doesn't need special software, SmallTalk is kind of set up to let you do everything PowerPoint does. On top of that he has the ability to integrate scripted stuff to his presentations because, SmallTalk is by definition a live coding environment. This does require mastery of the language and its Morphic UI Framework[0]. But on the other hand: that is one of the biggest reasons to learn SmallTalk (or Squeak) anyway. TBH, I'm talking from a purely theoretical perspective. I've tried and failed to dive into Pharo a few times[1]. But its live coding aspects have always fascinated me, and Moose and Mondrian look like pretty interesting tools for dataviz too [2][3][4]. [0] http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks/CollectiveNBlueBook/morphic.final.pdf http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks/CollectiveNBlueBoo... [1] http://pharo.org/ http://pharo.org/ [2] https://vimeo.com/97315968 https://vimeo.com/97315968 [3] http://www.moosetechnology.org/ http://www.moosetechnology.org/ [4] http://pharobooks.gforge.inria.fr/PharoByExampleTwo-Eng/latest/Mondrian.pdf http://pharobooks.gforge.inria.fr/PharoByExampleTwo-Eng/late...
  - smcl 9y ago
    Amazing - thanks for taking the time to dig all this out! I'm going to enjoy going through these links
qznc 9y ago
A friend of mine made interactive slides with Haskell: https://youtu.be/2kKvVe673MA https://youtu.be/2kKvVe673MA Also a blog post about it (although broken at the moment?) https://www.joachim-breitner.de/blog/729-Compose_Conference_talk_video_online https://www.joachim-breitner.de/blog/729-Compose_Conference_...
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  > Firefox has detected that the server is redirecting the request for this address in a way that will never complete. Sadly not in the Wayback archives either :/
  - qznc 9y ago
    The overview page works: https://www.joachim-breitner.de/blog https://www.joachim-breitner.de/blog You can scroll down to "Compose Conference talk video online" to read the article I linked to. Edit: Joachim fixed it.

Waterluvian 9y ago

Do you have an example? I'm interested.

itronitron 9y ago
sounds like Pad++ from UMD ... http://www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/pad++/ http://www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/pad++/
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  Wasn't what I had in mind, but thanks for that! I'm interested in the history of UI experimentation, and this looks interesting.

sattoshi 9y ago

Sounds a lot like Prezi

eovwm23neuo 9y ago

I've watched a presentation done with an app that works like this and it's nauseating. All the zooming in and out gave me a headache. It was literally one of the worst presentations I've ever viewed.

enzanki_ars 9y ago
I am assuming you are referring to Prezi. I agree that Prezi is one of the worst presentation software out there. Both presenting, viewing, and creating one of those presentations is the worst.
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  I think the main issue with Prezi-style presentations is that it demands too much skill to use properly. A better interface with sensible defaults and much less emphasis on wow-factor would help a lot here. Normal powerpoint "only" requires a basic awareness of composition and narrative coherence, which already is too much to ask in practice. To make good Prezi presentation you need to have the skills of a cinematographer/editor. Specifically, the skill of continuity editing[0] so your audience can follow what is going on. What we want is the calm, easy to read compositions of, say, Yasujirō Ozu or Wes Anderson, and Akira Kurasowa's sense of movement[1][2]. Instead everyone uses it in a way that it feels more like the worst aspects of Bayhem[3]. I still believe Prezi-like presentation tools have the potential to be good, because they could be used to map relationships in your narrative to spatial relationships. But that would require a) that you are aware of those relationships yourself and b) that you posses the skills to translate that into spatial compositions that are coherent. This is obviously an unrealistic demand, so instead the tools should assist you with that. It needs is an interface that helps users structure their story, with sensible default conversions. Maybe something like Treesheets[4], where you can create a tree-based hierarchy in your topics, and then a conversion of that to a spatial hierarchy that is easy to follow, and not a distraction from the actual narrative. The vertical slides in reveal.js are a step in the right direction, starting from the powerpoint side of the spectrum[5]. What we need a step in the right direction of the free-flowing Prezi side of presentations. At some point there will be a happy middle ground. EDIT: Maybe we should all just work our way through Pixar's storytelling course on Khan Academy[6] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuity_editing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuity_editing [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbXRpiVO1po https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbXRpiVO1po [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2THVvshvq0Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2THVvshvq0Q [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doaQC-S8de8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doaQC-S8de8 [4] http://strlen.com/treesheets/ http://strlen.com/treesheets/ [5] http://lab.hakim.se/reveal-js/#/ http://lab.hakim.se/reveal-js/#/ [6] https://www.khanacademy.org/partner-content/pixar/storytelling https://www.khanacademy.org/partner-content/pixar/storytelli...

pjtr 9y ago

Maybe the Oberon project Bluebottle OS[1] / AOS / A2? It's a ZUI[2] desktop. There seem to be only very few example videos[3] online. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluebottle_OS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluebottle_OS [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooming_user_interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooming_user_interface [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe0ZdzO_urU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe0ZdzO_urU

vanderZwan 9y ago
That was it! Thank you! I thought it was something to do with Oberon but just searching for that turned up nothing. Thanks to your hint I found the post where I read about it: http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2009/04/22/oberon/ http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2009/04/22/oberon/ The referenced rant at the beginning is now off-line, but still available through archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20090416033922/http://stevenf.tumblr.com:80/post/94591835/warning-a-long-rambly-exploration-of-the-state https://web.archive.org/web/20090416033922/http://stevenf.tu... Now, I'm not saying Bluebottle is great to work with, but the idea is interesting, and I think some of the good bits could be made to work better with modern IxD sensibilities applied to it, especially with touch-screens.

smcl 9y ago

Have you got an example of Alan Kay's use of smalltalk for presenting? I'm quite curious how it would look - my googling turned up a few videos but nothing particularly out of the ordinary (indeed it wasn't even obvious that he wasn't using powerpoint)

vanderZwan 9y ago
In this video, around the 38 minute mark, he shows a video in a slide, and I believe a few "slides" later runs a bridge simulation: https://vimeo.com/82301919 https://vimeo.com/82301919 (I can't watch this with sound right now, so I'm not sure if he mentions using SmallTalk to present here) But as you can see, you're right: it's not obvious at all. Despite the valid complaints raised in the linked article, the structure imposed by slides is helpful in its simplicity; plus the audience knows how to "read" them, which is also important. The point however is that he doesn't need special software, SmallTalk is kind of set up to let you do everything PowerPoint does. On top of that he has the ability to integrate scripted stuff to his presentations because, SmallTalk is by definition a live coding environment. This does require mastery of the language and its Morphic UI Framework[0]. But on the other hand: that is one of the biggest reasons to learn SmallTalk (or Squeak) anyway. TBH, I'm talking from a purely theoretical perspective. I've tried and failed to dive into Pharo a few times[1]. But its live coding aspects have always fascinated me, and Moose and Mondrian look like pretty interesting tools for dataviz too [2][3][4]. [0] http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks/CollectiveNBlueBook/morphic.final.pdf http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks/CollectiveNBlueBoo... [1] http://pharo.org/ http://pharo.org/ [2] https://vimeo.com/97315968 https://vimeo.com/97315968 [3] http://www.moosetechnology.org/ http://www.moosetechnology.org/ [4] http://pharobooks.gforge.inria.fr/PharoByExampleTwo-Eng/latest/Mondrian.pdf http://pharobooks.gforge.inria.fr/PharoByExampleTwo-Eng/late...
- smcl 9y ago
  Amazing - thanks for taking the time to dig all this out! I'm going to enjoy going through these links

qznc 9y ago

A friend of mine made interactive slides with Haskell: https://youtu.be/2kKvVe673MA https://youtu.be/2kKvVe673MA Also a blog post about it (although broken at the moment?) https://www.joachim-breitner.de/blog/729-Compose_Conference_talk_video_online https://www.joachim-breitner.de/blog/729-Compose_Conference_...

vanderZwan 9y ago
> Firefox has detected that the server is redirecting the request for this address in a way that will never complete. Sadly not in the Wayback archives either :/
- qznc 9y ago
  The overview page works: https://www.joachim-breitner.de/blog https://www.joachim-breitner.de/blog You can scroll down to "Compose Conference talk video online" to read the article I linked to. Edit: Joachim fixed it.