3 ms·

not a joke - tried to contact pg a few weeks ago already - emailed them again - but running out of time - if we don't get applications now, we can't launch. if

by enki 19y ago

not a joke - tried to contact pg a few weeks ago already - emailed them again - but running out of time - if we don't get applications now, we can't launch. if pg says anything in that direction, we'll immediately take it down, and ask people to resubmit new forms because we can't use them. the questions pg asks are great, it just didn't feel sensical to try to reformulate them. our differenciation is in how we implement it locally, not how we ask questions - the questions just are the same everywhere in the world. our local hacker club is what we think might make this work - we have a few hundred people sharing knowledge and ideas here. we hope to build up entrepreneurial knowledge and spirit around the metalab, and store it within the collective memory of the people here.

whacked_new 19y ago
I believe YC's program is quite revolutionary, both in terms of supporting innovative businesses and also as an educational opportunity; I agree that right now, they are probably the best model to follow, but copying the application verbatim doesn't reflect well on your organization. For example, do you have any other ideas you thought of applying with? One may be something we've been waiting for. I'd be very surprised if at the first time of execution, you are already so confident about your judgment of the internet startup landscape. It's reasonable to assume that YC really has things in mind. In this case, you are only waiting for things to come into your mind. If the YC method is good, people will learn from it, and it will flourish. But seeing how yeurope does it right now, I will be wary.
- enki 19y ago
  i know that this is a big problem, and does not reflect well on us. we've had some failed startup attempts 4 years ago, e.g. in the area of social sorting. we certainly can't provide the level of depth and experience pg has, but we've been trying our best to learn for a long time now. we're talking to lots of people in austria and throughout europe, and are trying to get more people to support and make this work. we have been working on getting things going fulltime for 4 years now, but the situation is a lot harder in europe. once there are some successful startups around, we hope to convince them to join the board. we just don't have any people to look up to here, and got to bootstrap somehow. we've been pretty busy in preparing the ground for this, both with our hacklab, but also with contacts to all kinds of people who might help out with this, private, corporate and political. we even founded an interest group for startup founders (IG Startup), to lobby with politics, and are actively discussing their ICT funding strategies with the respective politicians and decision makers. our hacklab launched one year ago, after 2 years of trying to finance it, and has a few hundred users already. the problem is the financing option for yeurope has just arisen half a week ago, and if we don't launch now - we might never do it.
  - rms 19y ago
    It speaks well of you that you're willing to address criticism on here. Good luck, I hope it goes well for you.
  - whacked_new 19y ago
    I second rms... but again, you shouldn't skimp on your website and your app, in any way; it's your public face. If you want to tailor the program to local apps, then it needs more thought. "We're looking for great people. We don't care that much whether your idea is the best thing since sliced bread." How in the world are you going to measure "great"? It's definitely not going to come through via just the 28 YC questions. They have a news site for what it's worth. A monster hacker team that cannot come up with a sellable idea is merely a great team of coders -- nothing but. And why does politics need to be involved?
    - enki 19y ago
      well, these are tough questions. the answers to these questions heavily involve european culture, so i'm having a really hard time accurately portrying the situation. but i'll try my best to answer. europe probably has just about as much cash, and as much education as the US. but according to the aho group report (http://ec.europa.eu/invest-in-research/action/2006_ahogroup_en.htm), http://ec.europa.eu/invest-in-research/action/2006_ahogroup_en.htm), named after the former finnish prime minister esko aho, the ICT field, despite having some of the lowest initial investment costs in all of high tech, is the most severly underdeveloped. the reasons for this, he muses are both a lack of entrepreneurial spirit, and a lack of funding in the pre-seed areas. i'd like to believe the first point is not an absolute. we have great people with the skills and desire to create cool applications. on the other hand you can't just walk up to a rich friend here, who'll give you cash if your idea is great. there are no rich friends, and even if you know one or two, they haven't made their cash in a startup, or even in the off chance that they have, they're a business guy. businesses are started by business people here. if you want to start a business, you have no chance to get cash from someone from your world, who has been on that path before. so you're left with public funding, and public funding involves politics. but public funding doesn't work for tech founders either - the lisbon goal of 3% GDP for r&d mostly goes into empty tech parks and research centers by big corporations. incorporating a limited liability company here requires at least 17000 euros, with a liability of up to 34000 euros. if you want to apply for any kind of funding, you require months of meeting bureaucrats and writing applications - a different one for each place. these people will tell you after months your projects are either not innovative, or they won't work. but the budget is there, so people claim everything is alright. then they fund projects by friends, or stupid things with avatars running around in browser plugins. the only places to get entrepreneurial information are bureaucrats. you're very unlikely to know anyone who started his or her own tech business without sheer luck and without their own money. there's no place to get advice, except other people who are on the same path right now. you usually don't start businesses before you've saved a significant amount of money and are probably well beyond your 40s. also people will discourage you, because it is seen as very risky. we are adressing these problems both by creating non-profit community centers where you're surrounded by like-minded people, and to which we invite people we think of as insightful, and by actively lobbying for better legislation to support startups, and by making access to initial cash easier. of the few techie-founders we have here, most are single-founders, because it is really hard to convince two friends to found with you if they can barely pay their rent while studying and working at the same time. for the argment about our capability to accurately judge the merit of the applications i have to say: you're unfairly postulating that we're unskilled because we have no huge successes to show yet. i have a hard time to counter that argument right now, but trust me, we're working hard to do just that.
paul 19y ago
You should add a disclaimer to your site that says, "We are not affiliated with Y-Combinator, we just ripped off their name, funding model, and application." Otherwise, people may get confused.
- enki 19y ago
  done
Benja 19y ago
A general question and a specific one: Who are you? Metalab has an extensive website, but who's behind YEurope? You know that the funding is only a small part of what YC provides -- you won't be able to live up to pg, rtm et al, which is expected, but right now you don't say anything about yourself, so why should a prospective applicant value your connections and advice? And: One of the things YC does is that it sets up a company for you. YEurope is in Austria. Austria is a country where it's expensive to incorporate (pg has written about how that is one problem for startups in Europe [1]). What are you going to do about that? [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/america.html http://www.paulgraham.com/america.html
- enki 19y ago
  hello benja, i'm paul and i'm the one who mainly started this. your reservations are absolutely justified. who am i to think i can do this? i haven't had any huge successes to show yet, and i really didn't want to launch like this. i had big plans of launching with my own money, and then i'd have prepared some nice texts telling my success story. as things went, we are launching early. i'm certainly in a different league than pg, but i try. being where i am now, i'll also write down some more information about me and the other people involved, so that you can get a better idea. basically i'm a computer security guy. started programming with 8, and then later spent a lot of time at university to get cheap net access using the DLX single-floppy linux distro that my brothers had developed in 96 (of course i had no student account at 14). met cool people there, tutors and such, and was trying hard to keep up with them. i started the teso security group in 98, and have been a computer security person ever since. i got involved with many NGOs, am really interested in game theory and reputation systems, co-wrote a paper on quantum cryptography, and started a company first trying to do social sorting, but ran out of money quickly (i wasn't checking against my own reality, but the reality i knew from my friends in SF, and expecting to get VC easily, so i rented an office, got myself a friend as a CEO who was good with words - i certainly wasn't back then). then i developed a bootable usb stick with a crypto IFS filesystem driver for windows, and loopback-aes for linux, to sell to local banks. we had a customer, and we finished the code, but my ceo got lovesick and didn't answer my calls for weeks. then i got a loan, hired a project manager to do this stuff for me. we didn't get anywhere, but she was really expensive. in early 2004 i had to close shop because we could neither get any funding at all, nor get anyone to manufacture the product. i made lots of mistakes. i got back into security consulting, and spent the last 3 years paying off my debt, and learning from these mistakes. i never managed to incorporate beyond my one-person-company. i spent my free time during the last 3 years building up the metalab, probably the most active non-profit and self-funded project center in europe. We have about 110 members, who pay 20 euros a month to finance our location. We are completely nonprofit and independent, and will remain like that. But one of the goals of the lab was to prepare both for my own next startup, and the startups of other people. so far we've been quite successful at sharing knowledge, experience, and instantiating projects. being wary of big endeavours with too many unknown factors, i'm organizing a computer security conference (http://deepsec.net/) http://deepsec.net/) right now and had planned to use that money to finance yeurope in a year. my startup probably is the most risk-averse of all we have in the lab right now. i was urgently aiming for success and start cash for yeurope. half a week ago, because we started lobbying as IG Startup (interest group of startup founders), an opportunity has arisen to do YEurope right now, by taking an angel on board. we certainly have worse cards than YC in the US, but i'm confident we can do this, or i wouldn't try. i'll try to write these things down in a more readable fashion in the future. in the meanwhile you can read a slightly outdated but less prosaic CV here: http://kybkreis.org/~enki/cv_paulboehm2007.pdf http://kybkreis.org/~enki/cv_paulboehm2007.pdf regarding the incorporation question: we have a harmonization regulation in the EU which allows us to start companies anywhere in Europe. we could start cheap LLCs or LLPs in the UK and still use them in Vienna, with Viennese law applying to all business except shareholder disputes which would be under UK law. for non-EU citizens we might have to find special arrangements. i have no idea how this might work. i'm not a lawyer though, and i'll leave this stuff to our lawyers.
BitGeek 19y ago
enki- You need to set up a forum for prospective YEurope startups to communicate about the idea. I don't think this discussion is going to happen on this thread.
- enki 19y ago
  great idea! i've set up a google group (both forum and mailinglist) at http://groups.google.com/group/yeurope/ http://groups.google.com/group/yeurope/ i'll link this from the main yeurope page too, after getting some well deserved (i hope) rest. i'm not sure if ggroups is the perfect communication medium - better ideas welcome! if you want to insta-chat with us, we're big fans of jabber. my jid is enki@jabber.metalab.at. lets hope feedback stays on a sane volume so i can directly stay in touch with all of you. paul

by enki 19y ago

whacked_new 19y ago

I believe YC's program is quite revolutionary, both in terms of supporting innovative businesses and also as an educational opportunity; I agree that right now, they are probably the best model to follow, but copying the application verbatim doesn't reflect well on your organization. For example, do you have any other ideas you thought of applying with? One may be something we've been waiting for. I'd be very surprised if at the first time of execution, you are already so confident about your judgment of the internet startup landscape. It's reasonable to assume that YC really has things in mind. In this case, you are only waiting for things to come into your mind. If the YC method is good, people will learn from it, and it will flourish. But seeing how yeurope does it right now, I will be wary.

enki 19y ago
i know that this is a big problem, and does not reflect well on us. we've had some failed startup attempts 4 years ago, e.g. in the area of social sorting. we certainly can't provide the level of depth and experience pg has, but we've been trying our best to learn for a long time now. we're talking to lots of people in austria and throughout europe, and are trying to get more people to support and make this work. we have been working on getting things going fulltime for 4 years now, but the situation is a lot harder in europe. once there are some successful startups around, we hope to convince them to join the board. we just don't have any people to look up to here, and got to bootstrap somehow. we've been pretty busy in preparing the ground for this, both with our hacklab, but also with contacts to all kinds of people who might help out with this, private, corporate and political. we even founded an interest group for startup founders (IG Startup), to lobby with politics, and are actively discussing their ICT funding strategies with the respective politicians and decision makers. our hacklab launched one year ago, after 2 years of trying to finance it, and has a few hundred users already. the problem is the financing option for yeurope has just arisen half a week ago, and if we don't launch now - we might never do it.
- rms 19y ago
  It speaks well of you that you're willing to address criticism on here. Good luck, I hope it goes well for you.
- whacked_new 19y ago
  I second rms... but again, you shouldn't skimp on your website and your app, in any way; it's your public face. If you want to tailor the program to local apps, then it needs more thought. "We're looking for great people. We don't care that much whether your idea is the best thing since sliced bread." How in the world are you going to measure "great"? It's definitely not going to come through via just the 28 YC questions. They have a news site for what it's worth. A monster hacker team that cannot come up with a sellable idea is merely a great team of coders -- nothing but. And why does politics need to be involved?
  - enki 19y ago
    well, these are tough questions. the answers to these questions heavily involve european culture, so i'm having a really hard time accurately portrying the situation. but i'll try my best to answer. europe probably has just about as much cash, and as much education as the US. but according to the aho group report (http://ec.europa.eu/invest-in-research/action/2006_ahogroup_en.htm), http://ec.europa.eu/invest-in-research/action/2006_ahogroup_en.htm), named after the former finnish prime minister esko aho, the ICT field, despite having some of the lowest initial investment costs in all of high tech, is the most severly underdeveloped. the reasons for this, he muses are both a lack of entrepreneurial spirit, and a lack of funding in the pre-seed areas. i'd like to believe the first point is not an absolute. we have great people with the skills and desire to create cool applications. on the other hand you can't just walk up to a rich friend here, who'll give you cash if your idea is great. there are no rich friends, and even if you know one or two, they haven't made their cash in a startup, or even in the off chance that they have, they're a business guy. businesses are started by business people here. if you want to start a business, you have no chance to get cash from someone from your world, who has been on that path before. so you're left with public funding, and public funding involves politics. but public funding doesn't work for tech founders either - the lisbon goal of 3% GDP for r&d mostly goes into empty tech parks and research centers by big corporations. incorporating a limited liability company here requires at least 17000 euros, with a liability of up to 34000 euros. if you want to apply for any kind of funding, you require months of meeting bureaucrats and writing applications - a different one for each place. these people will tell you after months your projects are either not innovative, or they won't work. but the budget is there, so people claim everything is alright. then they fund projects by friends, or stupid things with avatars running around in browser plugins. the only places to get entrepreneurial information are bureaucrats. you're very unlikely to know anyone who started his or her own tech business without sheer luck and without their own money. there's no place to get advice, except other people who are on the same path right now. you usually don't start businesses before you've saved a significant amount of money and are probably well beyond your 40s. also people will discourage you, because it is seen as very risky. we are adressing these problems both by creating non-profit community centers where you're surrounded by like-minded people, and to which we invite people we think of as insightful, and by actively lobbying for better legislation to support startups, and by making access to initial cash easier. of the few techie-founders we have here, most are single-founders, because it is really hard to convince two friends to found with you if they can barely pay their rent while studying and working at the same time. for the argment about our capability to accurately judge the merit of the applications i have to say: you're unfairly postulating that we're unskilled because we have no huge successes to show yet. i have a hard time to counter that argument right now, but trust me, we're working hard to do just that.

paul 19y ago

You should add a disclaimer to your site that says, "We are not affiliated with Y-Combinator, we just ripped off their name, funding model, and application." Otherwise, people may get confused.

enki 19y ago
done

Benja 19y ago

A general question and a specific one: Who are you? Metalab has an extensive website, but who's behind YEurope? You know that the funding is only a small part of what YC provides -- you won't be able to live up to pg, rtm et al, which is expected, but right now you don't say anything about yourself, so why should a prospective applicant value your connections and advice? And: One of the things YC does is that it sets up a company for you. YEurope is in Austria. Austria is a country where it's expensive to incorporate (pg has written about how that is one problem for startups in Europe [1]). What are you going to do about that? [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/america.html http://www.paulgraham.com/america.html

enki 19y ago
hello benja, i'm paul and i'm the one who mainly started this. your reservations are absolutely justified. who am i to think i can do this? i haven't had any huge successes to show yet, and i really didn't want to launch like this. i had big plans of launching with my own money, and then i'd have prepared some nice texts telling my success story. as things went, we are launching early. i'm certainly in a different league than pg, but i try. being where i am now, i'll also write down some more information about me and the other people involved, so that you can get a better idea. basically i'm a computer security guy. started programming with 8, and then later spent a lot of time at university to get cheap net access using the DLX single-floppy linux distro that my brothers had developed in 96 (of course i had no student account at 14). met cool people there, tutors and such, and was trying hard to keep up with them. i started the teso security group in 98, and have been a computer security person ever since. i got involved with many NGOs, am really interested in game theory and reputation systems, co-wrote a paper on quantum cryptography, and started a company first trying to do social sorting, but ran out of money quickly (i wasn't checking against my own reality, but the reality i knew from my friends in SF, and expecting to get VC easily, so i rented an office, got myself a friend as a CEO who was good with words - i certainly wasn't back then). then i developed a bootable usb stick with a crypto IFS filesystem driver for windows, and loopback-aes for linux, to sell to local banks. we had a customer, and we finished the code, but my ceo got lovesick and didn't answer my calls for weeks. then i got a loan, hired a project manager to do this stuff for me. we didn't get anywhere, but she was really expensive. in early 2004 i had to close shop because we could neither get any funding at all, nor get anyone to manufacture the product. i made lots of mistakes. i got back into security consulting, and spent the last 3 years paying off my debt, and learning from these mistakes. i never managed to incorporate beyond my one-person-company. i spent my free time during the last 3 years building up the metalab, probably the most active non-profit and self-funded project center in europe. We have about 110 members, who pay 20 euros a month to finance our location. We are completely nonprofit and independent, and will remain like that. But one of the goals of the lab was to prepare both for my own next startup, and the startups of other people. so far we've been quite successful at sharing knowledge, experience, and instantiating projects. being wary of big endeavours with too many unknown factors, i'm organizing a computer security conference (http://deepsec.net/) http://deepsec.net/) right now and had planned to use that money to finance yeurope in a year. my startup probably is the most risk-averse of all we have in the lab right now. i was urgently aiming for success and start cash for yeurope. half a week ago, because we started lobbying as IG Startup (interest group of startup founders), an opportunity has arisen to do YEurope right now, by taking an angel on board. we certainly have worse cards than YC in the US, but i'm confident we can do this, or i wouldn't try. i'll try to write these things down in a more readable fashion in the future. in the meanwhile you can read a slightly outdated but less prosaic CV here: http://kybkreis.org/~enki/cv_paulboehm2007.pdf http://kybkreis.org/~enki/cv_paulboehm2007.pdf regarding the incorporation question: we have a harmonization regulation in the EU which allows us to start companies anywhere in Europe. we could start cheap LLCs or LLPs in the UK and still use them in Vienna, with Viennese law applying to all business except shareholder disputes which would be under UK law. for non-EU citizens we might have to find special arrangements. i have no idea how this might work. i'm not a lawyer though, and i'll leave this stuff to our lawyers.

BitGeek 19y ago

enki- You need to set up a forum for prospective YEurope startups to communicate about the idea. I don't think this discussion is going to happen on this thread.

enki 19y ago
great idea! i've set up a google group (both forum and mailinglist) at http://groups.google.com/group/yeurope/ http://groups.google.com/group/yeurope/ i'll link this from the main yeurope page too, after getting some well deserved (i hope) rest. i'm not sure if ggroups is the perfect communication medium - better ideas welcome! if you want to insta-chat with us, we're big fans of jabber. my jid is enki@jabber.metalab.at. lets hope feedback stays on a sane volume so i can directly stay in touch with all of you. paul