4 ms·

> Don't we all have the right to a basic level of livelihood? You have the right to it, but you're not entitled to it. To me, having the right to do something

> Don't we all have the right to a basic level of livelihood? You have the right to it, but you're not entitled to it. To me, having the right to do something means you can't be prosecuted for doing it. It doesn't mean that society must help you.

kelnos 9y ago
Then you're using "right" in a very different way from what we expect around here.
- grondilu 9y ago
  It seems so. Regardless of our opinion about it, it'd be nice if people could agree on using two different terms for both concepts. https://fee.org/articles/rights-versus-entitlements/ https://fee.org/articles/rights-versus-entitlements/
  - kelnos 9y ago
    Maybe it would be, but it's generally considered folly to ignore community norms. Based on your response, clearly you know what people actually mean here, but it sounds like you're arguing out of some desire for pedantry, which is not something that goes over well here.
thaumaturgy 9y ago
Ok, let's set aside for a moment your personal politics, since compassion is clearly not a concept you're likely to grasp right now. As a practical matter, what do you think happens to any society that suffers a class divide severe enough that (a) the majority of the citizenry ends up in the underclass and (b) being in the underclass sucks badly enough to really piss people off? Societies need to take care of their citizens and ensure they receive, if nothing else, fair treatment under law and approximately equal opportunity. Otherwise, you get behavior like this: https://youtu.be/HL45pVdsRvE?t=60 https://youtu.be/HL45pVdsRvE?t=60 What a lot of people on both sides don't seem to be getting is that Trump getting elected was an expression of bipartisan anger and frustration on the part of voters. Their anger and frustration may have created an even worse result, depending on whether you think Trump is going to ease or worsen inequality in this country, but guess what? Stupid things are exactly the result of festering anger and resentment. There are a bunch of folks out there -- maybe you're one of them, maybe not, I dunno -- who kind of wish for some kind of implosion of American society. They think they'll come out ahead, because they've got guns or they live in the middle of nowhere. But, they won't come out ahead, they'll lose. Everyone will lose. So you can pontificate about the ideological merits of extreme Libertarianism all you want, but in practice it works exactly as well as extreme socialism.
- grondilu 9y ago
  > Societies need to take care of their citizens and ensure they receive, if nothing else, fair treatment under law and approximately equal opportunity. I'm not sure what you mean by "approximately equal opportunity", since the circumstances of life are so different it seems delusional to me to hope for equal opportunities for everyone. But I do agree on the concept of fair treatment under law, and I believe it's a fundamental basis for the notion of justice. I just don't believe poverty necessarily results from any unfair treatment, and that as such its prevention or mitigation is not society's duty.
  - thaumaturgy 9y ago
    This is still dodging the point that societies don't survive long with large numbers of poor, unhappy citizens. But anyway, your belief doesn't agree with reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSH9_IWeSK4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSH9_IWeSK4 "Terry Bossert, Range’s vice president for legislative and regulatory affairs, told a Pennsylvania Bar Institute gathering in Harrisburg earlier this month, that the company tries to avoid siting its shale gas wells near “big houses” where residents might have the financial resources to challenge the industrial-type developments." http://www.post-gazette.com/powersource/latest-oil-and-gas/2016/04/18/Executive-s-remark-about-shale-gas-well-sites-prompts-sharp-criticism-calls-for-review/stories/201604180027#link_time=1461017155 http://www.post-gazette.com/powersource/latest-oil-and-gas/2... "I’m a public defender. It’s impossible for me to do a good job representing my clients." https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/our-public-defender-system-isnt-just-broken--its-unconstitutional/2015/09/03/aadf2b6c-519b-11e5-9812-92d5948a40f8_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/our-public-defender-... "How companies make millions off lead-poisoned, poor blacks" https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/how-companies-make-millions-off-lead-poisoned-poor-blacks/2015/08/25/7460c1de-0d8c-11e5-9726-49d6fa26a8c6_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/how-compa... "I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term. I will never not be poor, so what does it matter if I don’t pay a thing and a half this week instead of just one thing?" https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/?single_page=true https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-br... "How municipalities in St. Louis County, Mo., profit from poverty" https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/09/03/how-st-louis-county-missouri-profits-from-poverty/?hpid=z2 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/09/03/... "As Court Fees Rise, The Poor Are Paying The Price" http://www.npr.org/2014/05/19/312158516/increasing-court-fees-punish-the-poor http://www.npr.org/2014/05/19/312158516/increasing-court-fee... I have 5,233 carefully-organized bookmarks in Pinboard. I can keep doing this for a while. The fact of the matter is that poverty by itself is unfair treatment. Those living in poverty automatically have fewer judicial options in legal disputes, bear an unfair proportion of costs in legal matters, have their communities unfairly targeted by exploitative businesses that know the citizens don't have the resources to fight back, and are subjected to poorer nutrition and harmful living environments which virtually guarantee that those people born into poverty will also die in it -- and of it.
dsnuh 9y ago
Wait, wha??? You have the right to it, but you are not entitled to it? I don't know if you are American, but let's assume you are. The Declaration Of Independence enshrines three "unalienable rights" that governments are "created to protect". Let's take them one at a time. 1. Life - so one has the right to life, yet is not entitled to it? If I take your life and don't get prosecuted for it, then everything is cool? 2. Liberty - if your skin color was black in the Antebellum south, you had the right to libery, you just weren't be entitled to it? 3. Pursuit of Happiness - you have the right to say, be able to read, which I think most would agree is pretty essential to pursuing your happiest self. But you are not entitled to any basic education, and the onus should be on you? This is one of the most cynical viewpoints I can think of. Edits: premature eclickulation
- grondilu 9y ago
  If Law itself can't prevent you to exercise your rights, it usually also means it should prevent other people from preventing you to exercise your rights. Thus murder (someone preventing you from exercising your right to live) is a crime and so is slavery (someone preventing you to exercise your freedom). Your third example is interesting because indeed, I personally believe that education should be a service like any other, one that society is not supposed to provide, at least not by law. On the other hand, law should not prevent your from getting one, nor should it allow anyone to prevent someone from having one. Hopefully you can see the difference. It's like say owning a car. You have the right to own one. If someone steals it, it's a crime and society must punish it. But society does not have to provide you one if you don't have any.
  - dsnuh 9y ago
    >If Law itself can't prevent you to exercise your rights, it usually also means it should prevent other people from preventing you to exercise your rights. Thus murder (someone preventing you from exercising your right to live) is a crime and so is slavery (someone preventing you to exercise your freedom). You are part of a lynch mob in the 30's. Your crime of murder is swept under the rug. You live in Alabama in 1836. A man frees your slave, and you had to shoot him as he runs away. You are now out one slave (no murder, right?) and the man who freed him is in prison. Laws change. Rights are inalienable.

kelnos 9y ago

Then you're using "right" in a very different way from what we expect around here.

grondilu 9y ago
It seems so. Regardless of our opinion about it, it'd be nice if people could agree on using two different terms for both concepts. https://fee.org/articles/rights-versus-entitlements/ https://fee.org/articles/rights-versus-entitlements/
- kelnos 9y ago
  Maybe it would be, but it's generally considered folly to ignore community norms. Based on your response, clearly you know what people actually mean here, but it sounds like you're arguing out of some desire for pedantry, which is not something that goes over well here.

thaumaturgy 9y ago

Ok, let's set aside for a moment your personal politics, since compassion is clearly not a concept you're likely to grasp right now. As a practical matter, what do you think happens to any society that suffers a class divide severe enough that (a) the majority of the citizenry ends up in the underclass and (b) being in the underclass sucks badly enough to really piss people off? Societies need to take care of their citizens and ensure they receive, if nothing else, fair treatment under law and approximately equal opportunity. Otherwise, you get behavior like this: https://youtu.be/HL45pVdsRvE?t=60 https://youtu.be/HL45pVdsRvE?t=60 What a lot of people on both sides don't seem to be getting is that Trump getting elected was an expression of bipartisan anger and frustration on the part of voters. Their anger and frustration may have created an even worse result, depending on whether you think Trump is going to ease or worsen inequality in this country, but guess what? Stupid things are exactly the result of festering anger and resentment. There are a bunch of folks out there -- maybe you're one of them, maybe not, I dunno -- who kind of wish for some kind of implosion of American society. They think they'll come out ahead, because they've got guns or they live in the middle of nowhere. But, they won't come out ahead, they'll lose. Everyone will lose. So you can pontificate about the ideological merits of extreme Libertarianism all you want, but in practice it works exactly as well as extreme socialism.

grondilu 9y ago
> Societies need to take care of their citizens and ensure they receive, if nothing else, fair treatment under law and approximately equal opportunity. I'm not sure what you mean by "approximately equal opportunity", since the circumstances of life are so different it seems delusional to me to hope for equal opportunities for everyone. But I do agree on the concept of fair treatment under law, and I believe it's a fundamental basis for the notion of justice. I just don't believe poverty necessarily results from any unfair treatment, and that as such its prevention or mitigation is not society's duty.
- thaumaturgy 9y ago
  This is still dodging the point that societies don't survive long with large numbers of poor, unhappy citizens. But anyway, your belief doesn't agree with reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSH9_IWeSK4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSH9_IWeSK4 "Terry Bossert, Range’s vice president for legislative and regulatory affairs, told a Pennsylvania Bar Institute gathering in Harrisburg earlier this month, that the company tries to avoid siting its shale gas wells near “big houses” where residents might have the financial resources to challenge the industrial-type developments." http://www.post-gazette.com/powersource/latest-oil-and-gas/2016/04/18/Executive-s-remark-about-shale-gas-well-sites-prompts-sharp-criticism-calls-for-review/stories/201604180027#link_time=1461017155 http://www.post-gazette.com/powersource/latest-oil-and-gas/2... "I’m a public defender. It’s impossible for me to do a good job representing my clients." https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/our-public-defender-system-isnt-just-broken--its-unconstitutional/2015/09/03/aadf2b6c-519b-11e5-9812-92d5948a40f8_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/our-public-defender-... "How companies make millions off lead-poisoned, poor blacks" https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/how-companies-make-millions-off-lead-poisoned-poor-blacks/2015/08/25/7460c1de-0d8c-11e5-9726-49d6fa26a8c6_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/how-compa... "I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term. I will never not be poor, so what does it matter if I don’t pay a thing and a half this week instead of just one thing?" https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/?single_page=true https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-br... "How municipalities in St. Louis County, Mo., profit from poverty" https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/09/03/how-st-louis-county-missouri-profits-from-poverty/?hpid=z2 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/09/03/... "As Court Fees Rise, The Poor Are Paying The Price" http://www.npr.org/2014/05/19/312158516/increasing-court-fees-punish-the-poor http://www.npr.org/2014/05/19/312158516/increasing-court-fee... I have 5,233 carefully-organized bookmarks in Pinboard. I can keep doing this for a while. The fact of the matter is that poverty by itself is unfair treatment. Those living in poverty automatically have fewer judicial options in legal disputes, bear an unfair proportion of costs in legal matters, have their communities unfairly targeted by exploitative businesses that know the citizens don't have the resources to fight back, and are subjected to poorer nutrition and harmful living environments which virtually guarantee that those people born into poverty will also die in it -- and of it.

dsnuh 9y ago

Wait, wha??? You have the right to it, but you are not entitled to it? I don't know if you are American, but let's assume you are. The Declaration Of Independence enshrines three "unalienable rights" that governments are "created to protect". Let's take them one at a time. 1. Life - so one has the right to life, yet is not entitled to it? If I take your life and don't get prosecuted for it, then everything is cool? 2. Liberty - if your skin color was black in the Antebellum south, you had the right to libery, you just weren't be entitled to it? 3. Pursuit of Happiness - you have the right to say, be able to read, which I think most would agree is pretty essential to pursuing your happiest self. But you are not entitled to any basic education, and the onus should be on you? This is one of the most cynical viewpoints I can think of. Edits: premature eclickulation

grondilu 9y ago
If Law itself can't prevent you to exercise your rights, it usually also means it should prevent other people from preventing you to exercise your rights. Thus murder (someone preventing you from exercising your right to live) is a crime and so is slavery (someone preventing you to exercise your freedom). Your third example is interesting because indeed, I personally believe that education should be a service like any other, one that society is not supposed to provide, at least not by law. On the other hand, law should not prevent your from getting one, nor should it allow anyone to prevent someone from having one. Hopefully you can see the difference. It's like say owning a car. You have the right to own one. If someone steals it, it's a crime and society must punish it. But society does not have to provide you one if you don't have any.
- dsnuh 9y ago
  >If Law itself can't prevent you to exercise your rights, it usually also means it should prevent other people from preventing you to exercise your rights. Thus murder (someone preventing you from exercising your right to live) is a crime and so is slavery (someone preventing you to exercise your freedom). You are part of a lynch mob in the 30's. Your crime of murder is swept under the rug. You live in Alabama in 1836. A man frees your slave, and you had to shoot him as he runs away. You are now out one slave (no murder, right?) and the man who freed him is in prison. Laws change. Rights are inalienable.