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> It's the wrong angle. One should not look at corporations as the moral saviours. [...] Rather, it is the governments of the world we should be going at if we

by pyrale 9y ago

> It's the wrong angle. One should not look at corporations as the moral saviours. [...] Rather, it is the governments of the world we should be going at if we want this behaviour to change. Let us pretend that corporations have no influence over laws and governments, and merely play a game they had no hand in designing.

mempko 9y ago
Bingo. This a million Times.
ringaroundthetx 9y ago
What exactly did land of opportunity mean to you? Some people are playing by a more effective set of rules. You were sold a moral paradigm to stuff government coffers and bought it without even questioning how public services could be funded. Others see the moral relativity and aspire to adapt and do.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  Oh, but you weren't sold a moral paradigm to stuff corporate coffers? Your argument rests on the premise that you're a free thinker and everyone else is brainwashed. This conceit seems to be very common among libertarians.
  - ringaroundthetx 9y ago
    Governments are bound by the international market of other governments. They have to balance their taxation morality claims with incentivizing investment to have anything to tax at all. They’ve missed that balance by a long shot. Oops. Some places have attractive laws that attract investment. Some people lobbied for those specific laws and wrote them themselves. Think about how that happens. I would do the same as soon as some area breaks away into a new sovereign territory, separatists are too emotional to think about corporate income tax rates, ask for 0% and you’ll get it.
    - sgt101 9y ago
      Napoleon says "no". You do that and then one day 300000 people show up with guns. The lesson of modernity is that citizen armies beat all other forces hands down every time; contractors may be incredibly skilled but at the end of the day they are not fighting for the future. This was what the Prussians found and the Soviets in Afghanistan. Taxation isn't about morality, it's about functionality. It's about economic efficiency and social management.
      - ringaroundthetx 9y ago
        and when the masses come to expropriate the wealth of the rich and form their own sets of governances, they'll still only get to get what is on shore.
joelrunyon 9y ago
So the corporation is still the symptom. What we should be doing is insulating the government from outside influence.
- danharaj 9y ago
  A government insulated from outside influence no longer governs.
  - dmix 9y ago
    Just because politicians stop creating opportunities for mega-corps and wealthy individuals to gain unfair advantages in the economy doesn't stop them from writing all legislation. Corporations/wealthy individuals can't exploit power which doesn't exist. Adding more complexity and protections to prevent this has repeatedly failed and usually just creates more loopholes, the solution is simplification of new laws and reduction of old poorly written laws (adding more complexity has historically been a one way street in modern government: https://i.imgur.com/pe64eNd.png https://i.imgur.com/pe64eNd.png). And if lawmakers can't write regulations, legislation, or tax policy which doesn't give particular people/organizations an advantage, by side effect or directly, then they shouldn't write them at all - or just accept that there will be people who sidestep it. But it's ridiculous to say this will prevent politicians from governing. Yes, it will limit the types of legislation and force them to consider the full implications, but that's a good thing. This is why people support things like basic income and flat tax. Removing complexity, bureaucracy, and direct government involvement in picking winners/losers. Everyone knows the devil is in the details when you're trying to circumvent a system or take advantage of it.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      Tangential: interesting how, through using a weird vertical scale, the image you linked to weakens its own point. I suppose if the Y axis was consistent, it wouldn't look as if tax law expansion slowed down significantly in recent times.
      - 9y ago

by pyrale 9y ago

mempko 9y ago

Bingo. This a million Times.

ringaroundthetx 9y ago

What exactly did land of opportunity mean to you? Some people are playing by a more effective set of rules. You were sold a moral paradigm to stuff government coffers and bought it without even questioning how public services could be funded. Others see the moral relativity and aspire to adapt and do.

anigbrowl 9y ago
Oh, but you weren't sold a moral paradigm to stuff corporate coffers? Your argument rests on the premise that you're a free thinker and everyone else is brainwashed. This conceit seems to be very common among libertarians.
- ringaroundthetx 9y ago
  Governments are bound by the international market of other governments. They have to balance their taxation morality claims with incentivizing investment to have anything to tax at all. They’ve missed that balance by a long shot. Oops. Some places have attractive laws that attract investment. Some people lobbied for those specific laws and wrote them themselves. Think about how that happens. I would do the same as soon as some area breaks away into a new sovereign territory, separatists are too emotional to think about corporate income tax rates, ask for 0% and you’ll get it.
  - sgt101 9y ago
    Napoleon says "no". You do that and then one day 300000 people show up with guns. The lesson of modernity is that citizen armies beat all other forces hands down every time; contractors may be incredibly skilled but at the end of the day they are not fighting for the future. This was what the Prussians found and the Soviets in Afghanistan. Taxation isn't about morality, it's about functionality. It's about economic efficiency and social management.
    - ringaroundthetx 9y ago
      and when the masses come to expropriate the wealth of the rich and form their own sets of governances, they'll still only get to get what is on shore.

joelrunyon 9y ago

So the corporation is still the symptom. What we should be doing is insulating the government from outside influence.

danharaj 9y ago
A government insulated from outside influence no longer governs.
- dmix 9y ago
  Just because politicians stop creating opportunities for mega-corps and wealthy individuals to gain unfair advantages in the economy doesn't stop them from writing all legislation. Corporations/wealthy individuals can't exploit power which doesn't exist. Adding more complexity and protections to prevent this has repeatedly failed and usually just creates more loopholes, the solution is simplification of new laws and reduction of old poorly written laws (adding more complexity has historically been a one way street in modern government: https://i.imgur.com/pe64eNd.png https://i.imgur.com/pe64eNd.png). And if lawmakers can't write regulations, legislation, or tax policy which doesn't give particular people/organizations an advantage, by side effect or directly, then they shouldn't write them at all - or just accept that there will be people who sidestep it. But it's ridiculous to say this will prevent politicians from governing. Yes, it will limit the types of legislation and force them to consider the full implications, but that's a good thing. This is why people support things like basic income and flat tax. Removing complexity, bureaucracy, and direct government involvement in picking winners/losers. Everyone knows the devil is in the details when you're trying to circumvent a system or take advantage of it.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    Tangential: interesting how, through using a weird vertical scale, the image you linked to weakens its own point. I suppose if the Y axis was consistent, it wouldn't look as if tax law expansion slowed down significantly in recent times.
    - 9y ago