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In Norway, you pay an annual tax on basically everything you own (update: yes, everything you own, not everything you earn that year) past the first ~$180k. I d

In Norway, you pay an annual tax on basically everything you own (update: yes, everything you own, not everything you earn that year) past the first ~$180k. I don't really care what sort of "independence" this supports for somebody, I'm not going to live somewhere that makes you rent everything from the state, after paying exorbitant taxes to "buy" it. update: corrected the cutoff figure with new exchange rates and policy updates, seems that two parties in NO are looking to eliminate the wealth tax. added: keep in mind purchasing power differences in Norway, where basically everything is more expensive relative to the U.S. exchange value of the kroner. 1,480,000 NOK (source of the $180k figure) will buy you about 40 sqft of suburban apartment in Norway, on average.

Parcissons 9y ago
Oh, you shun any product of science then?
pmoriarty 9y ago
If what happens to your income past the first $100k is a major concern for you, you are very much in the minority in the US, as the median family income in the US is about $60k[1], and most Americans have less than $1k in savings.[2] Sure, rich people have little to gain by having a great social safety net, as they can just rely on their own money for all of that. But for the vast majority of Americans, it matters. Also, for those who are complaining that the US has such high taxes, you should know that the US itself used to tax income of over 90%. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United... [2] - https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/13/how-much-americans-at-have-in-their-savings-accounts.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/13/how-much-americans-at-have-i...
- mwilliaams 9y ago
  The poster was talking about what "you own". It's really easy to have more than $100k in assets. That's basically anybody who owns a home.
  - Xylakant 9y ago
    The median net household worth in the US in 2013 was still below 100k USD as per https://www.yahoo.com/news/median-wealth-whites-us-nearly-163001058.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/median-wealth-whites-us-nearly-16... (can’t find newer numbers atm, but I’d be surprised if the median did move significantly upwards) Keep in mind that wealth in the US is extremely unevenly distributed and you might be making observations in a bubble. The white median is for example about 50% higher than the combined.
  - pmoriarty 9y ago
    The median net worth of Americans is $97k. [1] As for owning homes, many Americans don't own their home but rent. [1] - http://www.newstrategist.com/median-net-worth-97300-in-2016/ http://www.newstrategist.com/median-net-worth-97300-in-2016/
    - microcolonel 9y ago
      Land and housing is cheap in the U.S, relatively speaking. in Norway, wealth taxes start after about 40 sqft of out-of-town apartment.
      - Moenghus 9y ago
        If that was true, I'd be very wealthy: 40 square feet is 6.3 by 6.3 feet. Or 3.7 square meters. That would make for a price of 57 000 $ per square meter! In reality, the national average price in Norway is $ 5000 per square meter and 10 000 in the most expensive area (Frogner, Oslo January 2016) So $ 180 000 buys you a studio apartment of 18 square meters in the most fancy area, or 36 sqm on the average. That is roughly 200 and 400 square feet.
    - Moenghus 9y ago
      The median net household worth in Norway is $ 300 000.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  Not income, static assets. That is, if you own more than about 40 sqft (sic) of apartment space outside of a city centre, you must pay a wealth tax on it. It's sad that this is the top response, because you have completely misunderstood what I said, and responded with something unrelated.
  - Moenghus 9y ago
    Probably not. It only counts for 1/4 its value, and you get to subtract your mortgage, so its pulling your average net worth _down_ until your mortgage gets paid down to less than 1/4 the value of your property.
Xylakant 9y ago
Taxes are not rent. Taxes are the share of expenses you pay for the services and security the state provides. In European countries, especially in the Scandinavian ones it’s commonly understood and agreed upon that the stronger ones carry more of that burden. That may sound like communism to people from a country with a stronger “each for his own good” mindset, but pretty much all statistics point in the direction that it makes for fewer extremely rich people but to an overall happier society. Not having to worry about health care is one of contributing factors. And when looking at the fact that a medical incident in the family nearly bankrupted the last Vice President of the US, you really have to be one of the few insanely rich to be certain that such an incident won’t hit you.
- stingraycharles 9y ago
  What the parent is talking about is most likely the yearly tax you have to pay over your (already taxed) savings. E.g. here in The Netherlands you have to pay 4% tax a year over any savings over 25k euro. This includes anything like investments as well. The parent is considering that 4% the “rent” after you already paid 52% tax to “buy” it.
  - Xylakant 9y ago
    What you pay taxes on doesn’t matter. It’s the part of your income, assets, inheritance that the society decided you have to contribute to be part of it. Call it donation, rent, protection money or stick with a less loaded term and call it taxes.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  A wealth tax is exactly equivalent to a rent. There is a genuine owner (the state) which has control of the property in a default, there is an unlimited recurring fee set by the owner (the state), and access to the property is predicated on paying that fee.
  - Frondo 9y ago
    Of course not. You still own whatever you own, and can still sell it, destroy it, modify it, whatever. You do pay tax on owning it, in a system that taxes wealth, but that does not mean someone else owns it. Calling it rent and calling the state the true owner doesn't really make sense--you're conflating two separate ideas, I think, to play on people's emotions ("oh noes, the state owns everything!"). It's not true or accurate, though.
dorfsmay 9y ago
Everything you own? Or everything you earn? If the former, then this would an application of Piketty's idea, of taxing capital instead of revenue, which I thought had not been implemented anywhere yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Piketty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Piketty
- microcolonel 9y ago
  http://www.skatteetaten.no/en/Tabeller-og-satser/Formuesskatt/ http://www.skatteetaten.no/en/Tabeller-og-satser/Formuesskat...
Moenghus 9y ago
Speaking as a Norwegian, the wealth tax is not really that much of an issue. It just not that burdensome. Its less than one per cent of your net worth above $ 180 k. Net worth, so you can subtract any debts such as your mortgage, student loans, etc first. And property only counts for 1/4 its actual value. Its just not going to impact on people. Anyone with enough net assets to make it relevant is going to consider the amount neglible. According to the Norwegian statistics authority, the average gross household worth is 3.4 million NKr ( 500 000 $ depending on exchange rate.) 2/3s are in property. Net after debts is 2.1 million, so you got 2.2 million in property and 1.3 million in debt. That means your taxable worth for this tax is equal to (2.1 million + 2.2 million/4) - 1.3 million - 1.5 million. Which is a negative 200 000. Converted to dollars, that means Norways Joe Average household with a gross worth of $ 485 000, and a net worth of $ 300 000 can still add 28 000 $ to his assets before the tax starts to kick in. Provided he does not take on more debts there. Property is reeeeal good that way since you can subtract your full mortgage. While only counting 1/4 the value of the property and the interest is deductible on your income tax. Joe Average also makes 70 k $ and pays 25 % tax.
- Moenghus 9y ago
  PS Exchange rate 10 year average used.

Parcissons 9y ago

Oh, you shun any product of science then?

pmoriarty 9y ago

If what happens to your income past the first $100k is a major concern for you, you are very much in the minority in the US, as the median family income in the US is about $60k[1], and most Americans have less than $1k in savings.[2] Sure, rich people have little to gain by having a great social safety net, as they can just rely on their own money for all of that. But for the vast majority of Americans, it matters. Also, for those who are complaining that the US has such high taxes, you should know that the US itself used to tax income of over 90%. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United... [2] - https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/13/how-much-americans-at-have-in-their-savings-accounts.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/13/how-much-americans-at-have-i...

mwilliaams 9y ago
The poster was talking about what "you own". It's really easy to have more than $100k in assets. That's basically anybody who owns a home.
- Xylakant 9y ago
  The median net household worth in the US in 2013 was still below 100k USD as per https://www.yahoo.com/news/median-wealth-whites-us-nearly-163001058.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/median-wealth-whites-us-nearly-16... (can’t find newer numbers atm, but I’d be surprised if the median did move significantly upwards) Keep in mind that wealth in the US is extremely unevenly distributed and you might be making observations in a bubble. The white median is for example about 50% higher than the combined.
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  The median net worth of Americans is $97k. [1] As for owning homes, many Americans don't own their home but rent. [1] - http://www.newstrategist.com/median-net-worth-97300-in-2016/ http://www.newstrategist.com/median-net-worth-97300-in-2016/
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    Land and housing is cheap in the U.S, relatively speaking. in Norway, wealth taxes start after about 40 sqft of out-of-town apartment.
    - Moenghus 9y ago
      If that was true, I'd be very wealthy: 40 square feet is 6.3 by 6.3 feet. Or 3.7 square meters. That would make for a price of 57 000 $ per square meter! In reality, the national average price in Norway is $ 5000 per square meter and 10 000 in the most expensive area (Frogner, Oslo January 2016) So $ 180 000 buys you a studio apartment of 18 square meters in the most fancy area, or 36 sqm on the average. That is roughly 200 and 400 square feet.
  - Moenghus 9y ago
    The median net household worth in Norway is $ 300 000.
microcolonel 9y ago
Not income, static assets. That is, if you own more than about 40 sqft (sic) of apartment space outside of a city centre, you must pay a wealth tax on it. It's sad that this is the top response, because you have completely misunderstood what I said, and responded with something unrelated.
- Moenghus 9y ago
  Probably not. It only counts for 1/4 its value, and you get to subtract your mortgage, so its pulling your average net worth _down_ until your mortgage gets paid down to less than 1/4 the value of your property.

Xylakant 9y ago

Taxes are not rent. Taxes are the share of expenses you pay for the services and security the state provides. In European countries, especially in the Scandinavian ones it’s commonly understood and agreed upon that the stronger ones carry more of that burden. That may sound like communism to people from a country with a stronger “each for his own good” mindset, but pretty much all statistics point in the direction that it makes for fewer extremely rich people but to an overall happier society. Not having to worry about health care is one of contributing factors. And when looking at the fact that a medical incident in the family nearly bankrupted the last Vice President of the US, you really have to be one of the few insanely rich to be certain that such an incident won’t hit you.

stingraycharles 9y ago
What the parent is talking about is most likely the yearly tax you have to pay over your (already taxed) savings. E.g. here in The Netherlands you have to pay 4% tax a year over any savings over 25k euro. This includes anything like investments as well. The parent is considering that 4% the “rent” after you already paid 52% tax to “buy” it.
- Xylakant 9y ago
  What you pay taxes on doesn’t matter. It’s the part of your income, assets, inheritance that the society decided you have to contribute to be part of it. Call it donation, rent, protection money or stick with a less loaded term and call it taxes.
microcolonel 9y ago
A wealth tax is exactly equivalent to a rent. There is a genuine owner (the state) which has control of the property in a default, there is an unlimited recurring fee set by the owner (the state), and access to the property is predicated on paying that fee.
- Frondo 9y ago
  Of course not. You still own whatever you own, and can still sell it, destroy it, modify it, whatever. You do pay tax on owning it, in a system that taxes wealth, but that does not mean someone else owns it. Calling it rent and calling the state the true owner doesn't really make sense--you're conflating two separate ideas, I think, to play on people's emotions ("oh noes, the state owns everything!"). It's not true or accurate, though.

dorfsmay 9y ago

Everything you own? Or everything you earn? If the former, then this would an application of Piketty's idea, of taxing capital instead of revenue, which I thought had not been implemented anywhere yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Piketty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Piketty

microcolonel 9y ago
http://www.skatteetaten.no/en/Tabeller-og-satser/Formuesskatt/ http://www.skatteetaten.no/en/Tabeller-og-satser/Formuesskat...

Moenghus 9y ago

Speaking as a Norwegian, the wealth tax is not really that much of an issue. It just not that burdensome. Its less than one per cent of your net worth above $ 180 k. Net worth, so you can subtract any debts such as your mortgage, student loans, etc first. And property only counts for 1/4 its actual value. Its just not going to impact on people. Anyone with enough net assets to make it relevant is going to consider the amount neglible. According to the Norwegian statistics authority, the average gross household worth is 3.4 million NKr ( 500 000 $ depending on exchange rate.) 2/3s are in property. Net after debts is 2.1 million, so you got 2.2 million in property and 1.3 million in debt. That means your taxable worth for this tax is equal to (2.1 million + 2.2 million/4) - 1.3 million - 1.5 million. Which is a negative 200 000. Converted to dollars, that means Norways Joe Average household with a gross worth of $ 485 000, and a net worth of $ 300 000 can still add 28 000 $ to his assets before the tax starts to kick in. Provided he does not take on more debts there. Property is reeeeal good that way since you can subtract your full mortgage. While only counting 1/4 the value of the property and the interest is deductible on your income tax. Joe Average also makes 70 k $ and pays 25 % tax.

Moenghus 9y ago
PS Exchange rate 10 year average used.