6 ms·

I wonder why they are considered two different persons at this point. I am not entirely sure the justification of separate identity here should be the two obvio

by kensai 9y ago

I wonder why they are considered two different persons at this point. I am not entirely sure the justification of separate identity here should be the two obvious separate "bodies" (gastrointestinal tracts, limbs, etc)! All that matters for the same identity to me is the brain. If one can read the thoughts of the other so easily, in my book it is the same person. Disclaimer: am resident in Neurology with a background in Anatomy

goodcanadian 9y ago
It would appear that they perceive themselves as separate. They don't simply share a brain; there seems to be two of most structures. The brains are, however, highly intertwined.
- kensai 9y ago
  Persons with Split Brain (to the Corpus callosum) can perceive their right part of their body different from the left. Schizophrenic and other highly psychotic patients can have multiple personalities. They still seem to have ONE thalamus and that says a lot about their ability to perceive each other side.
  - goodcanadian 9y ago
    I could be reading it wrong, but the article seems to indicate that there are two thalamuses (thalami?), but they are connected by a bridge. What this means in a practical sense, well that is above my level of expertise.
    - kensai 9y ago
      Well, technically you have two thalami (two halves).
- teawrecks 9y ago
  That's the interesting part, did the people raising them condition them to think they were two people? If they had treated then as one person, would they behave like one person? The brain is amazing and super weird.
  - jacobush 9y ago
    Would you have thought you were two people, if the people raising you conditioned you to think you were two people? If they had treated you as two persons, would you (two) behave like two persons? Also something to ponder. And heck, as disturbing: what about two (regular) twins raised as one person...
lolc 9y ago
The way I understood the situation it's two brains fused together, not one brain in control of two bodies. The twins were described as having different personalities.
- kensai 9y ago
  The same can happen to schizophrenic patients. They are still one person (from a juridical point of view). Neuroanatomically, what I see here in this situation is a highly intermingled brain, so intermixed that it is impossible to separate without killing both personalities and their bodies as well.
  - placebo 9y ago
    I believe you're referring to Dissociative identity disorder (DID), or multiple personality disorder (MPD), not Schizophrenia, and a friend who's a psychiatrist told me that in quite a few decades of practicing, he hasn't encountered even once such a diagnosis so he doubts it even exists outside of Hollywood movies. As far as I'm concerned what matters is how many entities exist who display a behavior of a separate entity (at least to the degree that we acknowledge as being separate) - i.e display different personalities each with a cohesive structure and integrity. It really doesn't matter how many physical brains they share.
    - kensai 9y ago
      Your friend is wrong, there are persons who are delusional to the point of losing grip with their own bounds of personality, but of course Hollywood creates a dramatic picture of them all. SPLIT was a fantastic movie in any case! :p
  - lake99 9y ago
    > schizophrenic patients Schizophrenia has to do with some degree of failure to separate reality and delusion. It's got nothing to do with multiple personalities. Are you talking about dissosiative identity disorder, instead?
SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
> I wonder why they are considered two different persons at this point. Because the system isn't well-defined in this case, which happens less than 1 in a million times, so isn't worth trying to fix explicitly. The simplest solution is to give them two identities and move on with life having a little oddity -- as a pragmatic solution, it seems like the one that would end in the least litigation, as it confers an advantage not a disadvantage on the person(s) in question and can't possibly disenfranchise anyone. It's not like you can't already create extra 'selves' (in most senses; eg voting is different) legally at the cost of $200 a pop -- what does it really matter if less than 1 in a million people happens to have two for what is otherwise going to be a very hard and likely short life? That said -- I agree with you that it's not really well-defined here, because our notion of 'identity' is already highly problematic. Edit: This is a strange thought: what is the impact on someone with multiple personalities if you allow each personality to incorporate an LLC, all owned by a parent LLC (obviously, all legally owned by the 'person') -- ie, create an external legal framework that parallels the structure of the internal mental one, that all of the personalities should be able to view? I'm honestly not sure if that's helpful for providing a lens to see the interaction play out or harmful for legitimizing the split. (And to some degree, all of us possess such multiple personalities -- we're rarely entirely the same person at work as at home or church or... whatever. I'd just argue that 'healthy' adults understand the interaction better.)
ars 9y ago
> If one can read the thoughts of the other so easily, in my book it is the same person. I can also read your thoughts. Are we the same person? The only difference is you need to put them in text, and she does it via electrical impulses. Their thoughts are not integrated into a single entity, but rather they are able to communicate via a channel you don't posses. As evidence, when they need to share thoughts it takes them extra time, to me that means communication, not single entity. Another way to put it: They can distinguish their own thoughts from those of their sister. > am resident in Neurology Then you should know that even a regular brain is really multiple independent "thinkers" that are wired to give the illusion of a single entity. Disrupt that wiring and the different "minds" will do their own thing, separately from the others (alien hand syndrome for example). And I know that that sounds like an argument against what I'm saying. It's basically the question of consciousness: Who is the "I" that is speaking. That alien hand has no consciousness. These conjoined sisters have two, because each can perceive itself as distinct.

by kensai 9y ago

goodcanadian 9y ago

It would appear that they perceive themselves as separate. They don't simply share a brain; there seems to be two of most structures. The brains are, however, highly intertwined.

kensai 9y ago
Persons with Split Brain (to the Corpus callosum) can perceive their right part of their body different from the left. Schizophrenic and other highly psychotic patients can have multiple personalities. They still seem to have ONE thalamus and that says a lot about their ability to perceive each other side.
- goodcanadian 9y ago
  I could be reading it wrong, but the article seems to indicate that there are two thalamuses (thalami?), but they are connected by a bridge. What this means in a practical sense, well that is above my level of expertise.
  - kensai 9y ago
    Well, technically you have two thalami (two halves).
teawrecks 9y ago
That's the interesting part, did the people raising them condition them to think they were two people? If they had treated then as one person, would they behave like one person? The brain is amazing and super weird.
- jacobush 9y ago
  Would you have thought you were two people, if the people raising you conditioned you to think you were two people? If they had treated you as two persons, would you (two) behave like two persons? Also something to ponder. And heck, as disturbing: what about two (regular) twins raised as one person...

lolc 9y ago

The way I understood the situation it's two brains fused together, not one brain in control of two bodies. The twins were described as having different personalities.

kensai 9y ago
The same can happen to schizophrenic patients. They are still one person (from a juridical point of view). Neuroanatomically, what I see here in this situation is a highly intermingled brain, so intermixed that it is impossible to separate without killing both personalities and their bodies as well.
- placebo 9y ago
  I believe you're referring to Dissociative identity disorder (DID), or multiple personality disorder (MPD), not Schizophrenia, and a friend who's a psychiatrist told me that in quite a few decades of practicing, he hasn't encountered even once such a diagnosis so he doubts it even exists outside of Hollywood movies. As far as I'm concerned what matters is how many entities exist who display a behavior of a separate entity (at least to the degree that we acknowledge as being separate) - i.e display different personalities each with a cohesive structure and integrity. It really doesn't matter how many physical brains they share.
  - kensai 9y ago
    Your friend is wrong, there are persons who are delusional to the point of losing grip with their own bounds of personality, but of course Hollywood creates a dramatic picture of them all. SPLIT was a fantastic movie in any case! :p
- lake99 9y ago
  > schizophrenic patients Schizophrenia has to do with some degree of failure to separate reality and delusion. It's got nothing to do with multiple personalities. Are you talking about dissosiative identity disorder, instead?

SomeStupidPoint 9y ago

> I wonder why they are considered two different persons at this point. Because the system isn't well-defined in this case, which happens less than 1 in a million times, so isn't worth trying to fix explicitly. The simplest solution is to give them two identities and move on with life having a little oddity -- as a pragmatic solution, it seems like the one that would end in the least litigation, as it confers an advantage not a disadvantage on the person(s) in question and can't possibly disenfranchise anyone. It's not like you can't already create extra 'selves' (in most senses; eg voting is different) legally at the cost of $200 a pop -- what does it really matter if less than 1 in a million people happens to have two for what is otherwise going to be a very hard and likely short life? That said -- I agree with you that it's not really well-defined here, because our notion of 'identity' is already highly problematic. Edit: This is a strange thought: what is the impact on someone with multiple personalities if you allow each personality to incorporate an LLC, all owned by a parent LLC (obviously, all legally owned by the 'person') -- ie, create an external legal framework that parallels the structure of the internal mental one, that all of the personalities should be able to view? I'm honestly not sure if that's helpful for providing a lens to see the interaction play out or harmful for legitimizing the split. (And to some degree, all of us possess such multiple personalities -- we're rarely entirely the same person at work as at home or church or... whatever. I'd just argue that 'healthy' adults understand the interaction better.)

ars 9y ago

> If one can read the thoughts of the other so easily, in my book it is the same person. I can also read your thoughts. Are we the same person? The only difference is you need to put them in text, and she does it via electrical impulses. Their thoughts are not integrated into a single entity, but rather they are able to communicate via a channel you don't posses. As evidence, when they need to share thoughts it takes them extra time, to me that means communication, not single entity. Another way to put it: They can distinguish their own thoughts from those of their sister. > am resident in Neurology Then you should know that even a regular brain is really multiple independent "thinkers" that are wired to give the illusion of a single entity. Disrupt that wiring and the different "minds" will do their own thing, separately from the others (alien hand syndrome for example). And I know that that sounds like an argument against what I'm saying. It's basically the question of consciousness: Who is the "I" that is speaking. That alien hand has no consciousness. These conjoined sisters have two, because each can perceive itself as distinct.