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I think about this a lot, mostly about Rochester, NY (where I went to college). It has world-class universities (and a renowned music conservatory[1]!), great

I think about this a lot, mostly about Rochester, NY (where I went to college). It has world-class universities (and a renowned music conservatory[1]!), great history, festivals, relatively low unemployment[2] and the housing is dirt, dirt cheap[3]. The thing is, right now I make a pretty great salary in NYC and I don't know that anything in Rochester could come close, even taking into account cost of living. Even if everything is expensive here, and even if expenses might be lower on a percentage basis in Rochester, I think I'm still able to save more in absolute terms where I am now. Not sure about that though, would need to run the numbers to confirm. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastman_School_of_Music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastman_School_of_Music [2] https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.ny_rochester_msa.htm#eag_ny_rochester_msa.f.1 https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.ny_rochester_msa.htm#eag_ny_roch... [3] https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Rochester,-NY_rb/?fromHomePage=true&shouldFireSellPageImplicitClaimGA=false&fromHomePageTab=buy https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Rochester,-NY_rb/?from...

athenot 9y ago
Affordable housing and good salaries are usually on the conflicting ends of the same scale. A place that has high-paying jobs will have residents out-bidding each other, driving up the prices of the housing market. Conversely, super cheap housing is usually an indicator that there really is no demand from affluent residents. As a counter-point to what I just said, more and more information-based jobs can be done remotely in a very effective manner. This lets people enjoy these small towns and their high salary. Two things could happen, though: - this could form communities with enough remote workers to start altering the housing prices, and produce a similar effect to gentrification in that the locals end up outpriced of their own town; - or this could encourage a better spread of higher-paid employees throughout a lot of small towns, and end up not affecting those towns markets. And as a bonus, this might even help relieve the housing pressure on the larger cities.
- wbl 9y ago
  Or we could remove housing supply restrictions
- jimmaswell 9y ago
  I feel like if all work was suddenly remote, city residency would drop at least 50% in a week. I hope remote eventually becomes the norm. There are probably a lot more like me out there who even in their 20s only work in a metro area solely out of necessity. I have a hard time imagining that all these people I see on HN pining for city living and making suburbs out to be worse than prison are more than a vocal minority.
  - seppin 9y ago
    > I feel like if all work was suddenly remote, city residency would drop at least 50% in a week. I hope remote eventually becomes the norm. Could not disagree more. (Young) people move to cities for vibrancy, culture, and to be around each other.
    - Density 9y ago
      Most people aren't young. Raising children in a city is a nightmare.
      - saosebastiao 9y ago
        Speak for yourself. Raising children in the burbs is a nightmare.
        grogenaut 9y ago
        Speak for yourself. Raising children is a nightmare. (Tho worth it)
        thousandautumns 9y ago
        I'm not sure I can envision a scenario where raising children in a suburb is worse than trying to do so in a city. Mind explaining?
        xkcd-sucks 9y ago
        They feel entitled to roam around in the woods without adult supervision, they come home muddy, they don't learn that you have to pay for everything, and their self-learned knowledge of manipulating the physical/natural world is scary and disempowering to tech weenie parents.
- jseliger 9y ago
  A place that has high-paying jobs will have residents out-bidding each other, driving up the prices of the housing market Not necessarily; some cities simply build enough to keep a lid on housing prices: https://www.vox.com/cards/affordable-housing-explained/ https://www.vox.com/cards/affordable-housing-explained/. Many Texas cities do this and even Chicago does to some extent. Tokyo also does this: https://www.vox.com/2016/8/8/12390048/san-francisco-housing-costs-tokyo https://www.vox.com/2016/8/8/12390048/san-francisco-housing-.... We have the technology to build a lot of housing units on a given parcel of land, if doing so is legal.
  - purplezooey 9y ago
    Yes especially in the BA. We could build twice as much housing and it wouldn't be enough.
  - afpx 9y ago
    I don’t want to come across as too skeptical since increased supply will certainly apply downward price pressure. But, I’ve been seeing this argument so often recently that I need to question it. Can you provide contrasting examples of places of similar high population growth where the deregulated ones’ home prices stayed substantially lower than the regulated ones? I ask this because I believe that demand is the primary influencer of home prices, not supply. I’m open-minded though. So, to challenge my assumptions, I even briefly looked at several of the fastest growing cities of the past couple years (with several in Texas). However, even areas that I assumed had lower regulation and less zoning still had substantial annual price increases. To me, the only way that you can reduce housing costs is to decrease demand.
- Kipters 9y ago
  That's why I'm trying to get to work remotely. Right now I live in Milan, but I'm planning to move to Palermo where housing costs a fifth, more or less
AndrewGaspar 9y ago
I wrestled with the same thing recently, moving from Seattle-area to Santa Fe, NM to be closer to my in-laws. It only worked because there was a singular employer who paid approximately what I had grown accustomed to. I think it is going to work out, especially since my wife has better prospects than she did in Seattle, but there's definitely a risk working somewhere that has few other competitive employers in the area. I'm not sure what I would do if I decided I needed to change employers, beyond some sort of remote work.
- drharby 9y ago
  Would you mind sharing who that employer was? Sandia Labs? I'm considering moving to NM for family reasons
  - ianai 9y ago
    I’m interested too for similar reasons.
  - AndrewGaspar 9y ago
    Los Alamos Labs. Maybe there's technically two employers if I'm willing to drive south instead of north. :)
    - jnsquire 9y ago
      I'm interested in NM (probably Albuquerque) as well. How's Los Alamos as an employer? Anyone from Sandia Labs around? Anyone else worth considering there?
- s0rce 9y ago
  I hope it works out for you. I moved to place with a singular employer, ended up strongly disliking my job and eventually moved to the SF Bay Area.
- driverdan 9y ago
  Why not find a remote job?
jasomill 9y ago
There are interesting parallels between Columbus and Rochester, and, in particular, the roles played by J. Irwin Miller and George Eastman, respectively, in their values and cultural development. As an aside, both men built interesting residences that are open to the public, and well worth visiting, especially by anyone with even a passing interest in design[1] or photography[2], respectively. [1] Miller's house was designed by Eero Saarinen, whose other notable projects included the "futuristic" Dulles and JFK airport terminals, and the St. Louis Arch. [2] In addition to the building itself, the Eastman House now serves more generally as a museum of photography and photographic technology.

athenot 9y ago

Affordable housing and good salaries are usually on the conflicting ends of the same scale. A place that has high-paying jobs will have residents out-bidding each other, driving up the prices of the housing market. Conversely, super cheap housing is usually an indicator that there really is no demand from affluent residents. As a counter-point to what I just said, more and more information-based jobs can be done remotely in a very effective manner. This lets people enjoy these small towns and their high salary. Two things could happen, though: - this could form communities with enough remote workers to start altering the housing prices, and produce a similar effect to gentrification in that the locals end up outpriced of their own town; - or this could encourage a better spread of higher-paid employees throughout a lot of small towns, and end up not affecting those towns markets. And as a bonus, this might even help relieve the housing pressure on the larger cities.

wbl 9y ago
Or we could remove housing supply restrictions
jimmaswell 9y ago
I feel like if all work was suddenly remote, city residency would drop at least 50% in a week. I hope remote eventually becomes the norm. There are probably a lot more like me out there who even in their 20s only work in a metro area solely out of necessity. I have a hard time imagining that all these people I see on HN pining for city living and making suburbs out to be worse than prison are more than a vocal minority.
- seppin 9y ago
  > I feel like if all work was suddenly remote, city residency would drop at least 50% in a week. I hope remote eventually becomes the norm. Could not disagree more. (Young) people move to cities for vibrancy, culture, and to be around each other.
  - Density 9y ago
    Most people aren't young. Raising children in a city is a nightmare.
    - saosebastiao 9y ago
      Speak for yourself. Raising children in the burbs is a nightmare.
      - grogenaut 9y ago
        Speak for yourself. Raising children is a nightmare. (Tho worth it)
      - thousandautumns 9y ago
        I'm not sure I can envision a scenario where raising children in a suburb is worse than trying to do so in a city. Mind explaining?
        xkcd-sucks 9y ago
        They feel entitled to roam around in the woods without adult supervision, they come home muddy, they don't learn that you have to pay for everything, and their self-learned knowledge of manipulating the physical/natural world is scary and disempowering to tech weenie parents.
jseliger 9y ago
A place that has high-paying jobs will have residents out-bidding each other, driving up the prices of the housing market Not necessarily; some cities simply build enough to keep a lid on housing prices: https://www.vox.com/cards/affordable-housing-explained/ https://www.vox.com/cards/affordable-housing-explained/. Many Texas cities do this and even Chicago does to some extent. Tokyo also does this: https://www.vox.com/2016/8/8/12390048/san-francisco-housing-costs-tokyo https://www.vox.com/2016/8/8/12390048/san-francisco-housing-.... We have the technology to build a lot of housing units on a given parcel of land, if doing so is legal.
- purplezooey 9y ago
  Yes especially in the BA. We could build twice as much housing and it wouldn't be enough.
- afpx 9y ago
  I don’t want to come across as too skeptical since increased supply will certainly apply downward price pressure. But, I’ve been seeing this argument so often recently that I need to question it. Can you provide contrasting examples of places of similar high population growth where the deregulated ones’ home prices stayed substantially lower than the regulated ones? I ask this because I believe that demand is the primary influencer of home prices, not supply. I’m open-minded though. So, to challenge my assumptions, I even briefly looked at several of the fastest growing cities of the past couple years (with several in Texas). However, even areas that I assumed had lower regulation and less zoning still had substantial annual price increases. To me, the only way that you can reduce housing costs is to decrease demand.
Kipters 9y ago
That's why I'm trying to get to work remotely. Right now I live in Milan, but I'm planning to move to Palermo where housing costs a fifth, more or less

AndrewGaspar 9y ago

I wrestled with the same thing recently, moving from Seattle-area to Santa Fe, NM to be closer to my in-laws. It only worked because there was a singular employer who paid approximately what I had grown accustomed to. I think it is going to work out, especially since my wife has better prospects than she did in Seattle, but there's definitely a risk working somewhere that has few other competitive employers in the area. I'm not sure what I would do if I decided I needed to change employers, beyond some sort of remote work.

drharby 9y ago
Would you mind sharing who that employer was? Sandia Labs? I'm considering moving to NM for family reasons
- ianai 9y ago
  I’m interested too for similar reasons.
- AndrewGaspar 9y ago
  Los Alamos Labs. Maybe there's technically two employers if I'm willing to drive south instead of north. :)
  - jnsquire 9y ago
    I'm interested in NM (probably Albuquerque) as well. How's Los Alamos as an employer? Anyone from Sandia Labs around? Anyone else worth considering there?
s0rce 9y ago
I hope it works out for you. I moved to place with a singular employer, ended up strongly disliking my job and eventually moved to the SF Bay Area.
driverdan 9y ago
Why not find a remote job?

jasomill 9y ago

There are interesting parallels between Columbus and Rochester, and, in particular, the roles played by J. Irwin Miller and George Eastman, respectively, in their values and cultural development. As an aside, both men built interesting residences that are open to the public, and well worth visiting, especially by anyone with even a passing interest in design[1] or photography[2], respectively. [1] Miller's house was designed by Eero Saarinen, whose other notable projects included the "futuristic" Dulles and JFK airport terminals, and the St. Louis Arch. [2] In addition to the building itself, the Eastman House now serves more generally as a museum of photography and photographic technology.