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Google’s fired engineer: James Damore’s claim against search giant revealed

42 points by YouAreGreat 9y ago

rhapsodic 9y ago
I hope Damore wins.
- funkythingss 9y ago
  Me, too. Just so ironic how the responses of Silicon Valley/Media proved his point exactly.
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    He made sizable list of claims, criticism of any of them is not evidence of what he was saying. My belief that you are wrong about Damore doesn't make you right. This should go without saying, but you made a new account to say that.
    - randallsquared 9y ago
      > This should go without saying, but you made a new account to say that. ...due to fear of the consequences of publicly holding a non-mainstream opinion in a culture-war subject, I assume. While I agree that merely being contrarian doesn't make the GP right, I also believe that calling them out for trying to protect themselves isn't very helpful.
      - aaron-lebo 9y ago
        They've got nothing to protect themselves from. It's not hypocritical for that same poster to accuse others of cowardice and then hide in anonymity?
        zaptheimpaler 9y ago
        They were criticizing a media outlet for not posting an original source, they used the word cowardice but its very different from the sense you use it - as a label of a personal behavior rather than a company. So it doesn't seem particularly hypocritical to me. When Damore is being tried in the court of public opinion, it matters a whole lot that the media publishes something different from what he wrote. Many people such as Damore, have had their careers destroyed over saying things that are not "correct". Those on the "correct" side face no such consequences. So yeah hiding in anonymity makes a whole lot of sense for one side and is completely unnecessary for the other.
        aaron-lebo 9y ago
        If you can't accept the unintended consequences of your actions, don't take action. Most jobs will fire you for being a nuisance. James was at Harvard and Google, he should be fine landing on his feet.
        zaptheimpaler 9y ago
        Yeah, well they didn't take the action of posting publicly to avoid said consequences just as you suggest, which you then criticize them for.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
  - guitarbill 9y ago
    If would be nice if people read his memo in the original form, and then made up their mind - whatever the outcome, it would be an improvement. But the chilling effect of collective outrage means no dialog will happen, so it's futile anyway.
funkythingss 9y ago
These cowards don't link to the original: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-I... Instead, they link to the heavily edited Gizmodo hit piece, that has the sources removed. Dishonest
- quuquuquu 9y ago
  Thank you for this. I agree that they are cowards. Damore is completely right, certain members of our society are shaming others into silence for supposed psychological safety. I also feel that money and political power are on the line too, which just heightens the needs for shaming others into silence, in their minds. Let's see what happens to our posts. EDIT: also Damore was attacked non-stop during his interview with Siliconbeat if I remember correctly.
  - funkythingss 9y ago
    I'm honestly not in the position to judge whether his sources were correct or not. If you read the memo and listen to him (e.g. on the Rubin Report) however you realise he doesn't want to hurt anybody, not even close. He is an extremely intelligent, introverted guy. But I don't care about it being right or wrong. Google wanted all opinions to be on the table (in theory). Damore is just the latest example of someone (usually a little right wing) to get in trouble for his political opinions. I don't want this shit to come to Europe, I want to be able to have political discussions with my colleagues. Speaking up for anyone who is unjustly attacked, no matter what political affiliation, is all we can do. I firmly believe Silicon Valley will eat itself. Silicon Valley is so big, because it cared about results, not diversity. Shifting their attention to diversity will increasingly bug investors and/or hurt profits so bad, that the next big tech hub will arise.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
      It's already arrived to Europe anyway. There is one mainstream view regarding (1) how to solve the immigration crisis, (2) whether or not different cultures and religions are equal, (3) whether or not a nation has the right to make a decision about its future. If you don't agree about any of these, you're quickly denounced as alt-right, Nazi etc. In extreme cases, you can lose a job. It's not happening frequently though as people are not stupid and learned to keep a low profile. You can discuss things in a more open way with your friends, but you better avoid any online discussions if you can be identified, no matter how reasonable your argument is.
danpalmer 9y ago
This article mentions that in California there is no protection of freedom of speech in employment (i.e. a company can terminate you for voicing an opinion it doesn't want voiced), but this seems to be the premise of Damore's unfair dismissal claim? On that basis, I can't see him having much of a chance.
- rhapsodic 9y ago
  >This article mentions that in California there is no protection of freedom of speech in employment (i.e. a company can terminate you for voicing an opinion it doesn't want voiced), but this seems to be the premise of Damore's unfair dismissal claim? Uh, no, actually, it's been reported many times in many other places that Damore's claim is that he was speaking out in an effort to improve working conditions at Google, and federal law prohibits the dismissal of an employee for engaging in that sort of activity. https://www.usnews.com/opinion/op-ed/articles/2017-08-22/why-fired-engineer-james-damore-may-have-a-federal-case-against-google https://www.usnews.com/opinion/op-ed/articles/2017-08-22/why...
  - Berobero 9y ago
    > effort to improve working conditions I'd assume the bar for this, though, is far higher than just claiming it. Obviously we're not not dealing with a clear cut poor working conditions like no restroom on site, or constant verbal abuse, etc; the meat of the contention seems to be that he wasn't allowed to discuss company policy with coworkers in regards to a politically sensitive subject, and that people with political views that don't cleanly align with that policy feel ostracized. That seems pretty close to "my freedom of speech wasn't protected". Regardless, it feels like the litigation is somewhat lacking in merit unless Damore can cleanly tie it back issues that made his day to day job difficult to perform (i.e. bona fide poor working conditions).
moomin 9y ago
I work in the UK. It’s much, much harder to get rid of someone without losing a case than it is in California. You know what? If someone’s disruptive, aggravates his co-workers or embarrasses the firm in public, they’re gone. They can get taken to industrial tribunal, they lose and just chalk it up to the cost of doing business. Google took a few days to think about it before firing Damore. I’m sure they worked out the cost/benefit. Yeah, they’ll fight this (and the line of argument sounds like a reach) but even if they lose, it’s just the cost of doing business. They might tighten up their process for firing people to avoid the particular vulnerability, but they won’t stop doing it.
Viliam1234 9y ago
So sad to see yet another article linking the version of memo edited by Gizmodo, instead of the original one. Just imagine: You write "X". A malicious website writes "he wrote Y". Somehow it becomes an important topic for the whole planet. And almost all newspapers link the "he wrote Y" document. Is this an exceptional incompetence, or a standard in journalism? Is it a new standard of the clickbait era, or was it always like this?

42 points by YouAreGreat 9y ago

rhapsodic 9y ago

I hope Damore wins.

funkythingss 9y ago
Me, too. Just so ironic how the responses of Silicon Valley/Media proved his point exactly.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  He made sizable list of claims, criticism of any of them is not evidence of what he was saying. My belief that you are wrong about Damore doesn't make you right. This should go without saying, but you made a new account to say that.
  - randallsquared 9y ago
    > This should go without saying, but you made a new account to say that. ...due to fear of the consequences of publicly holding a non-mainstream opinion in a culture-war subject, I assume. While I agree that merely being contrarian doesn't make the GP right, I also believe that calling them out for trying to protect themselves isn't very helpful.
    - aaron-lebo 9y ago
      They've got nothing to protect themselves from. It's not hypocritical for that same poster to accuse others of cowardice and then hide in anonymity?
      - zaptheimpaler 9y ago
        They were criticizing a media outlet for not posting an original source, they used the word cowardice but its very different from the sense you use it - as a label of a personal behavior rather than a company. So it doesn't seem particularly hypocritical to me. When Damore is being tried in the court of public opinion, it matters a whole lot that the media publishes something different from what he wrote. Many people such as Damore, have had their careers destroyed over saying things that are not "correct". Those on the "correct" side face no such consequences. So yeah hiding in anonymity makes a whole lot of sense for one side and is completely unnecessary for the other.
        aaron-lebo 9y ago
        If you can't accept the unintended consequences of your actions, don't take action. Most jobs will fire you for being a nuisance. James was at Harvard and Google, he should be fine landing on his feet.
        zaptheimpaler 9y ago
        Yeah, well they didn't take the action of posting publicly to avoid said consequences just as you suggest, which you then criticize them for.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- guitarbill 9y ago
  If would be nice if people read his memo in the original form, and then made up their mind - whatever the outcome, it would be an improvement. But the chilling effect of collective outrage means no dialog will happen, so it's futile anyway.

funkythingss 9y ago

These cowards don't link to the original: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-I... Instead, they link to the heavily edited Gizmodo hit piece, that has the sources removed. Dishonest

quuquuquu 9y ago
Thank you for this. I agree that they are cowards. Damore is completely right, certain members of our society are shaming others into silence for supposed psychological safety. I also feel that money and political power are on the line too, which just heightens the needs for shaming others into silence, in their minds. Let's see what happens to our posts. EDIT: also Damore was attacked non-stop during his interview with Siliconbeat if I remember correctly.
- funkythingss 9y ago
  I'm honestly not in the position to judge whether his sources were correct or not. If you read the memo and listen to him (e.g. on the Rubin Report) however you realise he doesn't want to hurt anybody, not even close. He is an extremely intelligent, introverted guy. But I don't care about it being right or wrong. Google wanted all opinions to be on the table (in theory). Damore is just the latest example of someone (usually a little right wing) to get in trouble for his political opinions. I don't want this shit to come to Europe, I want to be able to have political discussions with my colleagues. Speaking up for anyone who is unjustly attacked, no matter what political affiliation, is all we can do. I firmly believe Silicon Valley will eat itself. Silicon Valley is so big, because it cared about results, not diversity. Shifting their attention to diversity will increasingly bug investors and/or hurt profits so bad, that the next big tech hub will arise.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
    It's already arrived to Europe anyway. There is one mainstream view regarding (1) how to solve the immigration crisis, (2) whether or not different cultures and religions are equal, (3) whether or not a nation has the right to make a decision about its future. If you don't agree about any of these, you're quickly denounced as alt-right, Nazi etc. In extreme cases, you can lose a job. It's not happening frequently though as people are not stupid and learned to keep a low profile. You can discuss things in a more open way with your friends, but you better avoid any online discussions if you can be identified, no matter how reasonable your argument is.

danpalmer 9y ago

This article mentions that in California there is no protection of freedom of speech in employment (i.e. a company can terminate you for voicing an opinion it doesn't want voiced), but this seems to be the premise of Damore's unfair dismissal claim? On that basis, I can't see him having much of a chance.

rhapsodic 9y ago
>This article mentions that in California there is no protection of freedom of speech in employment (i.e. a company can terminate you for voicing an opinion it doesn't want voiced), but this seems to be the premise of Damore's unfair dismissal claim? Uh, no, actually, it's been reported many times in many other places that Damore's claim is that he was speaking out in an effort to improve working conditions at Google, and federal law prohibits the dismissal of an employee for engaging in that sort of activity. https://www.usnews.com/opinion/op-ed/articles/2017-08-22/why-fired-engineer-james-damore-may-have-a-federal-case-against-google https://www.usnews.com/opinion/op-ed/articles/2017-08-22/why...
- Berobero 9y ago
  > effort to improve working conditions I'd assume the bar for this, though, is far higher than just claiming it. Obviously we're not not dealing with a clear cut poor working conditions like no restroom on site, or constant verbal abuse, etc; the meat of the contention seems to be that he wasn't allowed to discuss company policy with coworkers in regards to a politically sensitive subject, and that people with political views that don't cleanly align with that policy feel ostracized. That seems pretty close to "my freedom of speech wasn't protected". Regardless, it feels like the litigation is somewhat lacking in merit unless Damore can cleanly tie it back issues that made his day to day job difficult to perform (i.e. bona fide poor working conditions).

moomin 9y ago

I work in the UK. It’s much, much harder to get rid of someone without losing a case than it is in California. You know what? If someone’s disruptive, aggravates his co-workers or embarrasses the firm in public, they’re gone. They can get taken to industrial tribunal, they lose and just chalk it up to the cost of doing business. Google took a few days to think about it before firing Damore. I’m sure they worked out the cost/benefit. Yeah, they’ll fight this (and the line of argument sounds like a reach) but even if they lose, it’s just the cost of doing business. They might tighten up their process for firing people to avoid the particular vulnerability, but they won’t stop doing it.

Viliam1234 9y ago

So sad to see yet another article linking the version of memo edited by Gizmodo, instead of the original one. Just imagine: You write "X". A malicious website writes "he wrote Y". Somehow it becomes an important topic for the whole planet. And almost all newspapers link the "he wrote Y" document. Is this an exceptional incompetence, or a standard in journalism? Is it a new standard of the clickbait era, or was it always like this?