9 ms·
Using Face ID to unlock brother’s iPhone X after entering PIN
- tribby 9y agothis appears to be a trick of sorts. according to a comment by one of the brothers, faceid only acknowledged the new user after the phone had been unlocked via PIN while looking at it. that sounds a bit like an intentional feature for training the facial recognition?
- freeflight 9y agoYup pretty much, the phone seems to learn appearance changes when the PIN is used to unlock. They also look quite similar except for 1-2 moles and the different hairstyles. But they have really similar head shapes and facial structures, wearing the same brand of glasses certainly ain't helping either.
- Hates_ 9y agoFor those who don't want to wade through the comments: > We wanted to give an update on this, since we have had some time to play around with the phone a bit. And this is whats happening. I did not realize what exact steps we had followed until it happened again today. We have been resetting face id and doing it all over again. And this is what the steps are that makes it happen almost 50% of the time. Not sure if its intended or is a bug. 1. My brother(left) setup the face id. 2. Unlocks with his face. Does not with mine. 3. I entered the pin with the phone facing me. It it unlocked as expected. 4. Now I locked it again. 5. I raised it up to my face, and it unlocks. 6. It unlocks each time after that with my face
- sudhirj 9y agoThis is super important info that they've left out of the video. A face similar to the face on file that has the PIN should be considered a face capable of unlocking, I think. Everyone's face changes over time.
- trothamel 9y agoAt the same time, the system needs to be judged as to if it's secure or not, not if it's the best possible implementation of FaceID or not. After all, something like a fingerprint reader on the back is a valid alternative. At the end of the day, a system where it's likely you'll find someone who can unlock it isn't very secure.
- scarface74 9y agoIt didn't just unlock based on a similar face. It unlocked for someone who had a similar face and knew the correct PIN. FaceID learns about changes in your looks based partially on those criteria. If the other person knows your PIN, you've already loss.
- lttlrck 9y agoWhat happens when an untrusted person that uses your PIN on a regular basis for legitimate reasons becomes untrusted? Now you need to reset your PIN and retrain FaceID? I hope IOS gives a warning when changing the PIN that if you think FaceID has been compromised to retrain FaceID. edit: because the idea that FaceID could be compromised like this is non-obvious
- skywhopper 9y agoSounds like it will only happen if the faces are similar. So if the threshold for matching is 95% match to the internal model, but the faces are 90% similar, and then the new face enters the correct PIN, then the new face will be used to tweak the model, which will move the error to inbetween the features of both. So if their faces are similar to within twice the margin-of-error of the detection algorithm, then you can probably get this effect. All that said "an untrusted person that uses your PIN" knows your PIN... so they are a trusted person as far as the OS is concerned. There's nothing you can do with FaceID/TouchID that you can't do with the PIN. All FaceID/TouchID do is decrypt the PIN from the secure enclave. So if you've shared your PIN with them, then this is a weird thing, but not actually a security violation.
- dTal 9y agoThe difference is that it's easy to change a PIN, but hard to retrain FaceID. So sharing a PIN is reasonable in the knowledge that it can be changed, but you might not be aware that it has more ramifications under opaque and unclear circumstances.
- zwily 9y agoRetraining FaceID takes about 20 seconds. How is that hard?
- ProblemFactory 9y agoThe hardest part might be noticing in the first place that your FaceID model has drifted away from only your face.
- Spooky23 9y agoIt’s also similar to fingerprint behavior — you could add multiple people’s prints to your phone.
- hajile 9y agoFacebook says one in a million people will match (vs one in 50k for fingerprints). I'd guess that close family generally have a better shot of being that face match compared to a complete stranger (unlike fingerprints which don't seem to have familial features).
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- addicted 9y agoThat’s the issue I’ve had with Apple’s claims about FaceID being X times more secure than TouchID. Your facial features are very likely to be similar to people who live around you. I don’t believe this is true of fingerprints. So it seems it’s far more likely that the 1 in million chance of an overlap will be around your phone than the 1 in 50000 chance in case of TouchID.
- weego 9y agoIt's also far more likely that those people do not pose a genuine malicious threat to your data and security
- jonlucc 9y agoI think parents who have had their kids purchase things from the app store without their approval might disagree.
- tedunangst 9y agoDoes FaceID recognize children as their parents?
- dpkonofa 9y agoOnly if the parents have given their child the PIN and they also look similar enough to trigger against the existing facial model.
- ballenf 9y agoThinking about unlocking as an application of the Birthday Problem (or Paradox), can someone with better math skills than me calculate the # of iPhone X users in a room necessary to get to 50% chance that someone can unlock someone else's phone? This would ignore the problem in the article and assume 1 in 1e6 odds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem
- tedunangst 9y agoThere's a formula in the article you linked.
- ballenf 9y agoYes, but I didn't think to use Wolfram and couldn't figure out how to reduce the formula to avoid having to calculate 1e6!
- The_Double 9y agoAbout 1250 people. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot++1-((n!+*+bin(1000000,n))%2F1000000%5En)+from+0+to+2000 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot++1-((n!+*+bin(1000...
- tedunangst 9y agosqrt(1400000) is about 1183.
- ballenf 9y agoWhere does the 1400000 come from?
- tedunangst 9y agoFrom the wikipedia formula. 2 ln 2 is about 1.4.
- 9y ago
- sandworm101 9y agoFree legal advice: dont lock your phone using biometrics like face id. A password is subject to constitutional protections. Your face is not. Free first aid advice from a lawyer in the armed forces: good luck unlocking your phone after a head/face injury. Hospital will be so much more fun with your phone locked in emergency mode because it wont recognize your swollen face.
- BoorishBears 9y agoYou realize you can still use your pin to open it it right? And you can disable the biometrics with a simple key combination.
- sandworm101 9y agoAnd when the police sieze your phone and use your face to unlock it before you can disable it? Ever wonder why apple allows for five tries with the fingerprint reader? They can guess whether you are right handed. After that there are only five digits to test. As for if injured: go with something like a pin or pattern that doesn't require any paticular body part. My fingurprints never scan properly after swimming or rock climbing.
- sdtransier 9y agoApple added an Emergency mode in iOS 11 that’s accessible by clicking the sleep/wake button five times. It also disables Touch ID/Face ID and requires the passcode after that. So if you think your phone will be seized, it’s a pretty quick way to disable everything but the passcode. https://www.macrumors.com/2017/08/17/ios-11-emergency-sos-disables-touch-id/ https://www.macrumors.com/2017/08/17/ios-11-emergency-sos-di...
- mschuster91 9y ago> So if you think your phone will be seized, it’s a pretty quick way to disable everything but the passcode. Good luck if the cops assault you from behind or early in the morning...
- gtsteve 9y agoIt would appear that if you enter the PIN, it rescans your face; presumably as their faces are rather similar it can be trained to accept two faces. The OP wrote an extra comment explaining this: https://www.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/7anj9f/iphonex_face_id_fail/dpcih16/ https://www.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/7anj9f/iphonex_face... Edit: Oh, it seems they posted a follow-up video which explains the behaviour: https://www.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/7atwap/update_iphonex_face_id_fail/ https://www.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/7atwap/update_iphon... It hasn't stopped news sites from reporting this however.
- danjoc 9y agoIt's seems easy to screw up authentication with Face ID. Apple really did swallow a fly here [1] I wonder, has anyone compiled a full list of iPhone X fails? There are getting to be more than I can remember, but let's see... 1 + 2 + 3 = 24 [2] The letter 'i' doesn't work on the default keyboard. [6] $550 to repair the back glass, breaks on first drop [4] Faster Geekbench, but slower real world usage than Note 8 [5] Dropped fingerprint scanner because OLED [1] Dropped face recognition accuracy because of supply issues [3] Screen burn/color shifting because of OLED [7] The camera bump and screen notch seem almost like forgetable fashion fumbles with all these issues. We are nearly to a Letterman top 10 list with iPhone X issues. I'm sure Samsung's ad dept will make lots of hay with this stuff. Note 8 <check mark> iPhone X [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2017-10-23/apple-losing-its-supply-chain-mojo-is-a-major-threat https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2017-10-23/apple-l... [2] https://qz.com/1114019/if-you-type-123-into-your-apple-iphones-calculator-on-ios-11-you-probably-wont-get-6-aapl/ https://qz.com/1114019/if-you-type-123-into-your-apple-iphon... [3] https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/25/apple-reduced-iphone-x-faceid-accuracy-to-boost-production-report.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/25/apple-reduced-iphone-x-facei... [4] https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-iphone-x-drop-test/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-iphone-x-drop-test/ [5] https://youtu.be/s-Vn0h8Wfo0 https://youtu.be/s-Vn0h8Wfo0 [6] https://www.macrumors.com/2017/11/01/ios-11-predictive-text-bug/ https://www.macrumors.com/2017/11/01/ios-11-predictive-text-... [7] https://9to5mac.com/2017/11/03/iphone-x-oled-burn-in-color-shifting/ https://9to5mac.com/2017/11/03/iphone-x-oled-burn-in-color-s... Steve Jobs would have fired a lot of people by now. I guess everyone feels job security with Tim Cook around. TC usually defends huge mistakes like these.
- zitterbewegung 9y agoI have a twin and when we tried the Face ID demo with my face loaded in my brother could have it say 'face recognised'. This would be conveinent for me because since we both commute to work I have to queue up a playlist or read his messages / email. But, I believe this was a design compromise that was pointed out in the product launch event.
- hungerstrike 9y agoFace ID is going to be a monumental failure. It's going to annoy everybody who likes things to happen fast all the time because Face ID will definitely cause a delay and frustrate every user at some point. Here are quotes from 2 of the very first reviews of this device: "I will admit I have not tried Face ID yet, but it's hard to imagine a facial recognition system that solves the problem of having to carefully aim a phone at your face." - https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/09/face-id-on-the-iphone-x-is-probably-going-to-suck/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/09/face-id-on-the-iphon... "[Face ID] worked the vast majority of times I tried it"... (NOTE: Not ALL the time) - and "...it’s definitely faster than the first generation of Touch ID, though perhaps slightly slower than the second gen." - https://techcrunch.com/2017/10/31/review-the-iphone-x-goes-to-disneyland/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/10/31/review-the-iphone-x-goes-t... And while everyone is holding their breath to see if Face ID works, I can see a bigger problem - The lack of a home button is probably the worst design decision. They should have gone with dedicated virtual home button or better yet, stick with the iPhone 7 style home button. iOS 10 and 11 already has too many problems distinguishing between "global gestures" and "application gestures". Half the time when I start scrolling near the bottom of the screen the control center shows up. I'm looking forward to Apple's time being over. They are already obviously struggling to keep their market share because they can't come up with innovations that people actually want.
- oflannabhra 9y agoWell, at least you are aware of your bias in your approach to FaceID.
- alkonaut 9y agoI use and like fingerprint unlock, which is what 60% successful? If face is better than that, then it's an improvement. I can't imagine it's worse.
- JHonaker 9y agoFace ID is actually ridiculously good at recognizing my face. I haven't made any conscious effort to adjust how I look at my phone, which is usually just me lounging back in a big chair with it near my lap. That's terrible posture I know. I think I've only had to readjust it once or twice, and it is for milliseconds. Plus, the home bar is really like a virtual home button that you just have to swipe up for instead of pressing down.
- alkonaut 9y agoIs the feature that it will "re-train" on a new but similar face once unlocked, and this is in order to handle normal slow change of people's faces?
- dmitriid 9y agoThis was addressed in the keynote in no uncertain terms. Starting at 12:12 here: https://youtu.be/eRvBU_tKGjE https://youtu.be/eRvBU_tKGjE Why this is such news to some is a mystery to me
- robert_foss 9y agoBecause of the reasonable expectation of security?
- dmitriid 9y agoBecause people are fools and can’t remember what the company specifically addressed in their own keynote on the actual tech barely a month after said keynote
- becauaeqgen 9y agoFive years from now when I have a problem with this I will surely remember that at a keynote in 2017 something something 12 minutes and 12 seconds.
- joering2 9y agoSaid that 53 days ago... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15232739 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15232739 What was Apple thinking??
- coldtea 9y agoThat since this requires both a PIN and an unlikely similar face (brothers that look more like twins) it's a moot point?
- coldtea 9y ago>IPhoneX Face ID fail? Obviously not, since apart from the hair (or lack thereof), the two brothers look almost identical. Apple itself said, and not just in some support document, but in the keynote, that it will fail if you have an "evil twin" or, well, an actual twin.
- the_common_man 9y agoTo me all arabs/chinese/Japanese look the same as well. I asked an Indian friend and he said they are not similar.
- coldtea 9y agoI don't have difficulty telling Indians (or Chinese etc. for that matter) apart -- I'm also not American myself, and have worked in Asian countries. They just look very similar to me -- and apparently to Face ID too, and after all, they are siblings.
- moogly 9y agoI'm more concerned about the fact that it seems you have to do a pointless finger swipe to get away from the lock screen even though the phone is actually unlocked. I'd be furious.
- Geee 9y agoWhat if you want to check the time or notifications?
- PebblesHD 9y agoOn a related note, I tried face ID with my identical twin’s iphone X, and sure enough it lets me in pretty much every time without any trickery with the PIN. It’s made me quite uncomfortable with the security it offers as we aren’t so identical as to be mistaken frequently, yet the phone unlocks almost every time...