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It's funny that we can't just meet at the obvious middle ground. Russia didn't win the election for Trump, but you are kidding yourself if you believe it didn'

It's funny that we can't just meet at the obvious middle ground. Russia didn't win the election for Trump, but you are kidding yourself if you believe it didn't play a factor. US democracy has a lot of work to do, but Putin is an ex-KGB strongman who assassinates his opponents and annexes neighbors. It's pretty obvious how he operates.

zabana 9y ago
You are most certainly right about Putin, but that's not the point. You can't just blame censorship and failing policies on a foreign country. What I find truly intriguing is this lack of self criticism on the part of many people in the US. And about annexing neighbours, let's not talk about Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, Lybia, Sudan, Somalia and all the shady things that happened in Central/South America in the 60's.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  Not interested in playing "who is the worst". If you want me to acknowledge the US has done and continues to do evil stuff, well, yeah. My only point is that Russia intervened in a flawed American democracy. That's obvious, the only way to have proper self criticism is to acknowledge that reality which doesn't care about your political views.
- abiox 9y ago
  tu quoque or whataboutism isn't much of an argument. such responses are often vacuous, if not intellectually dishonest. it's can seem like an effort to divert or sidetrack an argument or conversation with blatantly fallacious responses.
wallace_f 9y ago
We do have a "trash heap"[1] of blatant lies about the Russia hacking from the "Unelected Deep State" (CIA/NSA/FBI), which just adds to lies from them that have been stacking up for decades. I don't trust agencies with histories of trying to murder civil rights activists like MLK, lying to get us to go to war in Iraq, lying about domestic surveillance, etc. Then we have the DNC very literally and provably rigging the primaries in favor of Clinton. You know what? I hate Trump. But give me a break. This Russia trash is just all a distraction. Trump blatantly supports unconstitutional programs like domestic surveillance and gitmo--this should be enough to impeach him alone for supporting an undermining of the US constitution and American's rights. The fact that they need to rely on this Russia story which requires a number of shifting standards and "just trust us's", rather than in-the-open undemocratic authoritarianism here in the US, is probably a testament to failures of the human mind's ability to think in terms of, and stand up for, liberty. I have been to Germany and Japan and the people are unbeleivably friendly and wonderful. What on earth is wrong with people that they can be coaxed into the evil dreams of tyrants--conflicts, authoritarianism--and is it happening again? Are we so different or special that we really think tyranny cant happen to us when we are going through the same patterns of history? Probably, if we could just adjust the human factor of 'susceptability to sell their liberties and fall in line behind authority figures for short-sighted self-interest,' we would live in a much better world. 1 - https://theintercept.com/2017/09/28/yet-another-major-russia-story-falls-apart-is-skepticism-permissible-yet/ https://theintercept.com/2017/09/28/yet-another-major-russia...
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  You've cited a lot of recently proved stuff (DNC rigging) but are ignoring the other stuff (re Russia) propaganda. It seems very arbitrary. Did both not very clearly happen? I don't think there's very many credible sources which believe otherwise. Probably if we could just adjust human susceptability to sell their liberties and fall in line behind authority figures we would live in a much better world. That only happens if you are realistic about what's going on instead of holding ideological political views. That's your solution.
  - wallace_f 9y ago
    I just cited a source that debunked some of the Russia claims, which were said to be "added to the trash heap." Why are you ignoring this? There are lots of good reasons to oppose and impech Trump. Something is wrong if you can ignore the authoritarianism, corruption, and unconstitutionality that exists here in the US--that both parties support, which is why they won't use them as reasons to impeach Trump--and you have been coaxed into a need to make a reach for a dubious conflict-stirring story of half-truths and shifting standards. You should ask yourself who the parties are that win after every election, no matter Republican or Democrat, and what they stand to gain or lose. Why you, instead, follow the machinations and war cry of authoritarians that have lost all credibility is probably a testament to the human bias to follow authority figures.
    - aaron-lebo 9y ago
      I'm confused. You cited a source which debunked the Russian hacking claims, but there's been a lot of evidence of Russian media influence (which is an obviously exploitable weakness). This didn't have anything to do with Trump. You're reading a lot into what I'm saying.
      - wallace_f 9y ago
        It has everything to do with Trump and the country. It is an attempted distraction, but the type of thing that happens around the world every year. Sometimes macroeconomists model concepts in the framework of households. Here is an analogy to help express where I am coming from: let's say every month your homeowners association has an election. For as long as anyone can ever remember, George and Barry win every time. Over the years they have installed security cameras inside your house, created conflicts with neighboring towns which profit their businesses and kill some of our children, and they have not done a very good job of taking care of the neighborhood. Along comes Don. There are lots of good reasons to hate Don, but George and Barry start a campaign to get him out which involves Ted, an adversary from an entirely different, trashy neighborhood, who passed fliers around with fake information in hopes that Barry wouldnt be elected again. I'm sitting in HOA meeting wondering why no one has brought up the security cameras inside my house, the fact that my best friend died due to George and Barry, JP & Morgan--who don't even live here--are getting a lot of our money for some reason, Barry's team is rigging the election process, and our neighborhood's health and environment is deteriorating. This was just a small start to a long list of terrible problems. But George and Barry are running the meeting and Ted is the focus.

zabana 9y ago

You are most certainly right about Putin, but that's not the point. You can't just blame censorship and failing policies on a foreign country. What I find truly intriguing is this lack of self criticism on the part of many people in the US. And about annexing neighbours, let's not talk about Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, Lybia, Sudan, Somalia and all the shady things that happened in Central/South America in the 60's.

aaron-lebo 9y ago
Not interested in playing "who is the worst". If you want me to acknowledge the US has done and continues to do evil stuff, well, yeah. My only point is that Russia intervened in a flawed American democracy. That's obvious, the only way to have proper self criticism is to acknowledge that reality which doesn't care about your political views.
abiox 9y ago
tu quoque or whataboutism isn't much of an argument. such responses are often vacuous, if not intellectually dishonest. it's can seem like an effort to divert or sidetrack an argument or conversation with blatantly fallacious responses.

wallace_f 9y ago

We do have a "trash heap"[1] of blatant lies about the Russia hacking from the "Unelected Deep State" (CIA/NSA/FBI), which just adds to lies from them that have been stacking up for decades. I don't trust agencies with histories of trying to murder civil rights activists like MLK, lying to get us to go to war in Iraq, lying about domestic surveillance, etc. Then we have the DNC very literally and provably rigging the primaries in favor of Clinton. You know what? I hate Trump. But give me a break. This Russia trash is just all a distraction. Trump blatantly supports unconstitutional programs like domestic surveillance and gitmo--this should be enough to impeach him alone for supporting an undermining of the US constitution and American's rights. The fact that they need to rely on this Russia story which requires a number of shifting standards and "just trust us's", rather than in-the-open undemocratic authoritarianism here in the US, is probably a testament to failures of the human mind's ability to think in terms of, and stand up for, liberty. I have been to Germany and Japan and the people are unbeleivably friendly and wonderful. What on earth is wrong with people that they can be coaxed into the evil dreams of tyrants--conflicts, authoritarianism--and is it happening again? Are we so different or special that we really think tyranny cant happen to us when we are going through the same patterns of history? Probably, if we could just adjust the human factor of 'susceptability to sell their liberties and fall in line behind authority figures for short-sighted self-interest,' we would live in a much better world. 1 - https://theintercept.com/2017/09/28/yet-another-major-russia-story-falls-apart-is-skepticism-permissible-yet/ https://theintercept.com/2017/09/28/yet-another-major-russia...

aaron-lebo 9y ago
You've cited a lot of recently proved stuff (DNC rigging) but are ignoring the other stuff (re Russia) propaganda. It seems very arbitrary. Did both not very clearly happen? I don't think there's very many credible sources which believe otherwise. Probably if we could just adjust human susceptability to sell their liberties and fall in line behind authority figures we would live in a much better world. That only happens if you are realistic about what's going on instead of holding ideological political views. That's your solution.
- wallace_f 9y ago
  I just cited a source that debunked some of the Russia claims, which were said to be "added to the trash heap." Why are you ignoring this? There are lots of good reasons to oppose and impech Trump. Something is wrong if you can ignore the authoritarianism, corruption, and unconstitutionality that exists here in the US--that both parties support, which is why they won't use them as reasons to impeach Trump--and you have been coaxed into a need to make a reach for a dubious conflict-stirring story of half-truths and shifting standards. You should ask yourself who the parties are that win after every election, no matter Republican or Democrat, and what they stand to gain or lose. Why you, instead, follow the machinations and war cry of authoritarians that have lost all credibility is probably a testament to the human bias to follow authority figures.
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    I'm confused. You cited a source which debunked the Russian hacking claims, but there's been a lot of evidence of Russian media influence (which is an obviously exploitable weakness). This didn't have anything to do with Trump. You're reading a lot into what I'm saying.
    - wallace_f 9y ago
      It has everything to do with Trump and the country. It is an attempted distraction, but the type of thing that happens around the world every year. Sometimes macroeconomists model concepts in the framework of households. Here is an analogy to help express where I am coming from: let's say every month your homeowners association has an election. For as long as anyone can ever remember, George and Barry win every time. Over the years they have installed security cameras inside your house, created conflicts with neighboring towns which profit their businesses and kill some of our children, and they have not done a very good job of taking care of the neighborhood. Along comes Don. There are lots of good reasons to hate Don, but George and Barry start a campaign to get him out which involves Ted, an adversary from an entirely different, trashy neighborhood, who passed fliers around with fake information in hopes that Barry wouldnt be elected again. I'm sitting in HOA meeting wondering why no one has brought up the security cameras inside my house, the fact that my best friend died due to George and Barry, JP & Morgan--who don't even live here--are getting a lot of our money for some reason, Barry's team is rigging the election process, and our neighborhood's health and environment is deteriorating. This was just a small start to a long list of terrible problems. But George and Barry are running the meeting and Ted is the focus.