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This reminds me of Google vs. the Chinese government. The government wanted heavy censorship for certain forbidden targets. Google picked up their toys and wen

This reminds me of Google vs. the Chinese government. The government wanted heavy censorship for certain forbidden targets. Google picked up their toys and went home, and let the Chinese discover the joys of VPN. If that's what Germany wants, Facebook should pack up and leave, and make people use a VPN to access Facebook. Every time you give censors the ability to arbitrarily determine what's ok and what's not, the ability always gets misused by the government, in my experience. For instance, compare and contrast the results shown for Tiananmen square in Baidu vs. Google. It's even forbidden to show relevant results for June 4th - most Chinese people get around that by searching for May 35th. If you can control the present, you control the future. By forbidding speech that is not currently fashionable, you open the floodgates.

stevenwoo 9y ago
On the one hand you have a point about China's actions, on the other hand, you are comparing Germany to mainland China as equivalent threats. As an American I would trust most countries in the EU with stuff like this over even my own country given the direction of the USA. This is all opinion and I'm not criticizing your view, just disagreeing, but I would hazard a guess from the wording of the last sentence the worry is about Orwell's 1984 dystopian future coming true when the bigger problem is that the problems in Huxley Brave New World is much closer to reality (even given the current autocratic/far right's non ironic use of doublespeak across all countries and forms of government). Germany already bans Nazi imagery and wording in many forms except for history purposes and they seem to be fine. We already have problems in the USA where now nonviolent political protestors are being prosecuted by the federal government and officials are encouraging people to commit violence against the protestors in spite of the protestors having the First Amendment to back them up - statutory limits or freedoms are not magic that make things right.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- jimmywanger 9y ago
  I appreciate your response. Just one thought: > statutory limits or freedoms are not magic that make things right. You're right, they're not, we have to fight for them. But if the laws are on the books, you have at least some recourse given an independent judiciary. Hate speech and marginalizing other groups is such a maddeningly vague category that either everything falls into, or nothing does. I don't know if you can tell, but I'm highly individualistic and freedom oriented. The fact that there's an ill defined law on the books that can be enforced with no recourse raises my hackles. Just like the beef I have with the TSA and the "no fly list". You can't figure out why you're on the list, and there is no real way for you to get off the list. I think due process is the most important thing. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.
- eighthnate 9y ago
  > As an American I would trust most countries in the EU with stuff like this over even my own country given the direction of the USA. As an american you trust europeans with free speech more than the US? Doesn't sound like an american to me considering how heavily europe censors. > Germany already bans Nazi imagery and wording in many forms except for history purposes and they seem to be fine. Fine by what standard? > We already have problems in the USA where now nonviolent political protestors are being prosecuted by the federal government and officials are encouraging people to commit violence against the protestors in spite of the protestors having the First Amendment to back them up - statutory limits or freedoms are not magic that make things right. Can you cite an example?
- sheepmullet 9y ago
  > As an American I would trust most countries in the EU with stuff like this over even my own country given the direction of the USA Why? Europe has had a lot of really serious internal problems over the last 150 years. > nonviolent political protestors are being prosecuted by the federal government > and officials are encouraging people to commit violence against the protestors Have they? I think you have been listening to a bit too much fake news. There has been a concentrated media effort to make the US look ignorant and backwards and to make the EU look enlightened.
dozzie 9y ago
> If that's what Germany wants, Facebook should pack up and leave, and make people use a VPN to access Facebook. Oh, it would be so nice if all the other countries did that, so Facebook would pack up and leave everywhere.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  So content would be hosted and regulated in a freedom-oriented place (or at least in a place where free servers can be predictably maintained) and no oppressive or abusive government could control speech with legislation or force? Doesn't sound bad, actually.
- majewsky 9y ago
  That would be really nice actually, because it would strip Facebook of its financial basis. When Facebook is not operating in the EU anymore, EU companies will likely put their advertising money elsewhere.
emodendroket 9y ago
I feel like you'd look positively ghoulish if you pulled out of Germany because of the privacy laws after cooperating with Pakistani authorities who are executing people for making posts on Facebook they deem blasphemous. http://fortune.com/2017/07/07/facebook-pakistan-blasphemy-death-sentence/ http://fortune.com/2017/07/07/facebook-pakistan-blasphemy-de... Also, here's the LRB on Zuckerberg and China (https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n19/-huangyuan/national-trolls https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n19/-huangyuan/national-trolls): > FB would be pushed to outperform it, but Zuckerberg seems determined to get into China, and there’s no limit to his prostrations before the leadership. In 2016, in an attempt to win their hearts, he jogged with his entourage in Tiananmen Square in heavy smog (pollution index 300+) without a mask. In 2015 he humiliated himself by asking Xi to name his daughter: no luck. In 2014, when he hosted our former internet tsar Lu Wei at FB’s headquarters in Menlo Park, Xi’s book The Governance of China was conspicuous on his desk.
- jimmywanger 9y ago
  > I feel like you'd look positively ghoulish if you pulled out of Germany because of the privacy laws after cooperating with Pakistani authorities who are executing people for making posts on Facebook they deem blasphemous. Two wrongs do not make a right. I think that Germany has a right to regulate speech, and Facebook should pull out. Just like they should have pulled out of Pakistan. Facebook is pandering to China because they need places to grow. And 1.4 billion people is quite attractive.
liberal_098 9y ago
> The government wanted heavy censorship for certain forbidden targets. ... and Google wanted to do censorship itself (like in other countries), therefore > Google picked up their toys and went home, and let the Chinese discover the joys of VPN. So it is not about freedom and liberty - it is about who will control what people speak and who will determines what is legal or illegal. Since these major monopolies like Facebook or Google are much stronger than many traditional states, they can do whatever they want by simply blaming a country in not doing what they were said to do. Now these corps are so large that they want to test how it works with larger countries like Germany.

stevenwoo 9y ago

On the one hand you have a point about China's actions, on the other hand, you are comparing Germany to mainland China as equivalent threats. As an American I would trust most countries in the EU with stuff like this over even my own country given the direction of the USA. This is all opinion and I'm not criticizing your view, just disagreeing, but I would hazard a guess from the wording of the last sentence the worry is about Orwell's 1984 dystopian future coming true when the bigger problem is that the problems in Huxley Brave New World is much closer to reality (even given the current autocratic/far right's non ironic use of doublespeak across all countries and forms of government). Germany already bans Nazi imagery and wording in many forms except for history purposes and they seem to be fine. We already have problems in the USA where now nonviolent political protestors are being prosecuted by the federal government and officials are encouraging people to commit violence against the protestors in spite of the protestors having the First Amendment to back them up - statutory limits or freedoms are not magic that make things right.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jimmywanger 9y ago
I appreciate your response. Just one thought: > statutory limits or freedoms are not magic that make things right. You're right, they're not, we have to fight for them. But if the laws are on the books, you have at least some recourse given an independent judiciary. Hate speech and marginalizing other groups is such a maddeningly vague category that either everything falls into, or nothing does. I don't know if you can tell, but I'm highly individualistic and freedom oriented. The fact that there's an ill defined law on the books that can be enforced with no recourse raises my hackles. Just like the beef I have with the TSA and the "no fly list". You can't figure out why you're on the list, and there is no real way for you to get off the list. I think due process is the most important thing. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.
eighthnate 9y ago
> As an American I would trust most countries in the EU with stuff like this over even my own country given the direction of the USA. As an american you trust europeans with free speech more than the US? Doesn't sound like an american to me considering how heavily europe censors. > Germany already bans Nazi imagery and wording in many forms except for history purposes and they seem to be fine. Fine by what standard? > We already have problems in the USA where now nonviolent political protestors are being prosecuted by the federal government and officials are encouraging people to commit violence against the protestors in spite of the protestors having the First Amendment to back them up - statutory limits or freedoms are not magic that make things right. Can you cite an example?
sheepmullet 9y ago
> As an American I would trust most countries in the EU with stuff like this over even my own country given the direction of the USA Why? Europe has had a lot of really serious internal problems over the last 150 years. > nonviolent political protestors are being prosecuted by the federal government > and officials are encouraging people to commit violence against the protestors Have they? I think you have been listening to a bit too much fake news. There has been a concentrated media effort to make the US look ignorant and backwards and to make the EU look enlightened.

dozzie 9y ago

> If that's what Germany wants, Facebook should pack up and leave, and make people use a VPN to access Facebook. Oh, it would be so nice if all the other countries did that, so Facebook would pack up and leave everywhere.

humanrebar 9y ago
So content would be hosted and regulated in a freedom-oriented place (or at least in a place where free servers can be predictably maintained) and no oppressive or abusive government could control speech with legislation or force? Doesn't sound bad, actually.
majewsky 9y ago
That would be really nice actually, because it would strip Facebook of its financial basis. When Facebook is not operating in the EU anymore, EU companies will likely put their advertising money elsewhere.

emodendroket 9y ago

I feel like you'd look positively ghoulish if you pulled out of Germany because of the privacy laws after cooperating with Pakistani authorities who are executing people for making posts on Facebook they deem blasphemous. http://fortune.com/2017/07/07/facebook-pakistan-blasphemy-death-sentence/ http://fortune.com/2017/07/07/facebook-pakistan-blasphemy-de... Also, here's the LRB on Zuckerberg and China (https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n19/-huangyuan/national-trolls https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n19/-huangyuan/national-trolls): > FB would be pushed to outperform it, but Zuckerberg seems determined to get into China, and there’s no limit to his prostrations before the leadership. In 2016, in an attempt to win their hearts, he jogged with his entourage in Tiananmen Square in heavy smog (pollution index 300+) without a mask. In 2015 he humiliated himself by asking Xi to name his daughter: no luck. In 2014, when he hosted our former internet tsar Lu Wei at FB’s headquarters in Menlo Park, Xi’s book The Governance of China was conspicuous on his desk.

jimmywanger 9y ago
> I feel like you'd look positively ghoulish if you pulled out of Germany because of the privacy laws after cooperating with Pakistani authorities who are executing people for making posts on Facebook they deem blasphemous. Two wrongs do not make a right. I think that Germany has a right to regulate speech, and Facebook should pull out. Just like they should have pulled out of Pakistan. Facebook is pandering to China because they need places to grow. And 1.4 billion people is quite attractive.

liberal_098 9y ago

> The government wanted heavy censorship for certain forbidden targets. ... and Google wanted to do censorship itself (like in other countries), therefore > Google picked up their toys and went home, and let the Chinese discover the joys of VPN. So it is not about freedom and liberty - it is about who will control what people speak and who will determines what is legal or illegal. Since these major monopolies like Facebook or Google are much stronger than many traditional states, they can do whatever they want by simply blaming a country in not doing what they were said to do. Now these corps are so large that they want to test how it works with larger countries like Germany.