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Imo a lot of literature has 0 novel content, so this is not suprising. Additional: I'm always shitting on the humanities in the comments here. I dont have anyt

Imo a lot of literature has 0 novel content, so this is not suprising. Additional: I'm always shitting on the humanities in the comments here. I dont have anything against them, I both produce them and consume massive quantities of them. My point is simply that they are trivial. If all art suddenly disappeared it wouldnt really matter. If knowledge about, and/or the fruits of STEM stuff disappeared it would be a huge setback, it could cause civilization to collapse. Additional additional: It bugs me how large a percentage of our resources we plow into entertainment. eg. "On a global scale, the entertainment and media market was worth 1.72 trillion U.S. dollars in 2015 and is set to rise to 2.14 trillion by 2020" NASAs current yearly budget is about 18.4 billion

Santosh83 9y ago
Not everything we produce needs to be valued by how much they contribute to industrial/scientific civilization. I specify that because loss of much of STEM won't lead to collapse of civilization, it will only set us back to the dark ages. We'll begin again. Same as we'd do if all art disappeared.
- everyone 9y ago
  Its not the same. If all existing art disappeared we would still be able to produce art at our current rate with no discernible or measurable difference in its quality or effect. Scientific or technological progress on the other hand is iterative. More advanced theories are slowly formulated on the backs of older ones. For precision tools for example you need to start off building crude tools with nothing, then use those to build the infrastructure that will allow you to build slightly more precise tools and so on.
  - padraic7a 9y ago
    "Its not the same. If all existing art disappeared we would still be able to produce art at our current rate with no discernible or measurable difference in its quality or effect." That's a very strange idea. If all existing novels dissappeared do you think we would produce novels straight away? If all painting dissappeared would we paint with perspective, or in abstract, or just go for rough cave type paintings? How long would it take us to come up with rhyming metre, or the observational essay, cinema or stand-up? You think we'd start from having no references and create this immediately?
    - everyone 9y ago
      Maybe rhyming metre would never be recreated. In some cultures it wasnt. The phase space for what will entertain humans is seemingly almost infinitely detailed, there is no wrong or right way to do it. Eg. people can dance to banging rocks together just as effectively as to Mozart. On the other hand, there is only one Pythagoras' theorem, and an infinitude of similar incorrect theorems. We postulate that intelligent aliens should discover Pythagoras' theorem but not Jazz or De Stijl.
  - Santosh83 9y ago
    They're not the same I agree. Which is why saying art is trivial and by implication disposable as compared to science is not IMO a healthy way to look at it. They are two sides of the same coin the way I see it. Through both we ultimately seek to understand reality inside and outside ourselves. I mean think about... why do we look at the stars? Why do we want to visit other planets? Why do we want to understand molecules and atoms? It's not all for the mere utility of being able to control materials and forces and therefore make our lives physically comfortable, though it's obviously a very important side effect. The core reason is we want to understand the meaning & beauty underlying reality, and art tries to do the same in a different way. So the way I see it, loss of STEM knowledge will set us back materially, while loss of all art and philosophy will set us back equally grievously in another sense.
mnem 9y ago
How much less of a budget would NASA get without entertainment such as Star Wars to fire people's imagination?
sanderjd 9y ago
> If all art suddenly disappeared it wouldnt really matter. Ugh. This is so arrogant. Take a step back, talk to some people outside this bubble, of different ages, from different parts of the world, and not just on the internet. Get a sense for how they want to live their lives, for what's important to them. Then come back to this opinion you hold so strongly and question it honestly.
- everyone 9y ago
  What bubble? Please do tell. I hope you're not arrogantly making assumptions about me. If all art disappeared, sure almost everyone on the planet would be initially upset and unhappy about it. But we'd just continue to make more, humans make art compulsively and instinctively. Eg. In archaeology the signs of art are often equated with the presence of modern humans. Scientific discovery on the other hand does not come naturally, one must subvert ones natural common sense and intuition and use tools like math and the scientific method. Every discovery is hard fought. Also art has no endgame, with enough science and technology we could create AI, the technological singularity, explore the galaxy, achieve literal immortality. With the best art and the happiest people it would all still certainly be erased by the sun going nova, or even just by a medium sized asteroid. ps. Heres another one..What if all art more than 50 years old disappeared? Most people mightnt even care or notice.
  - c22 9y ago
    > Also art has no endgame, with enough science and technology we could create AI, the technological singularity, explore the galaxy, achieve literal immortality. It sounds like in your scenario art is the endgame. What else will we do with our immortal selves once we've reached technological singularity?
    - everyone 9y ago
      Yeah, once we've done that we can relax. Now, when our very survival is in question is not a good time to squander our limited resources on decadence. .. Its like, youre starving but instead of going out to hunt you spend all day masturbating. Thats us as a species right now :)
wallacoloo 9y ago
I'm surprised I haven't heard this point of view before. In the past I've often thought that the amount of value I get from enjoying the humanities is _completely_ disproportionate to the amount I pay for them. The majority of my leisure time is spent consuming art. But if I told someone that I spend $1000/yr purchasing music, they would likely be a little surprised. At the very least I would be an outlier. But I can relate to the other point of view that there is a _lot_ of other work being done today that enables the humanities to be enjoyed in the first place, so maybe valuing the direct product of the humanities at only $500-$1000/yr isn't _that_ far away from their true value. I'm still not entirely convinced, but it's true that if the sharing of art vanished, I would find other ways to fill the gap without a huge amount of trouble (thought likely a large chunk of that would be me creating art for myself)
13of40 9y ago
Inasmuch as cable TV is art, it would cause riots.
lj3 9y ago
Arts aren't just entertainment. They're a reflection of the soul of a culture and exist long after that culture is dead. If you look at every culture ever recorded in human history, you'll note there is a direct correlation between a culture's progression in art and a culture's progression in science and technology. That said, I agree with you that most written literature has very little to offer most people. Most pieces of literature bear that designation because they are "teachable" in one form or another. Some are chosen because they perfect one very specific aspect of the craft of writing. Others, like Finnegan's Wake, are like P vs NP in that they provide an infinitely complex problem for intelligent minds to spend lifetimes chewing on without ever reaching a conclusion. Something else to keep in mind: the medium is the message. The medium a piece of art chooses is significant. TV and movies will rot your brain regardless of whether it's The Big Bang Theory or Citizen Kane. Reading will improve your brain, regardless of whether you're reading Danielle Steel or Chaucer.
- everyone 9y ago
  "the medium is the message. The medium a piece of art chooses is significant. TV and movies will rot your brain regardless of whether it's The Big Bang Theory or Citizen Kane. Reading will improve your brain, regardless of whether you're reading Danielle Steel or Chaucer." I have not heard that before. The medium a piece of art chooses is significant, yes, (and in a lot of cases the creator chooses the wrong medium, eg. there are plenty of computer games out there that really want to be films, they dont make use of the strengths of the medium and even fight against it.) The rest, I dont agree with. Imo big bang, citizen kane, danielle Steel and chaucer are all somewhat equatable, because they are all fiction/entertainment. Personally I'd rate something educational or non-fiction over fiction in any medium
  - lj3 9y ago
    You're making the mistake of thinking that all fiction is entertainment. It's not. There's a reason humans are hard wired to share stories. > Imo big bang, citizen kane, danielle Steel and chaucer are all somewhat equatable, because they are all fiction/entertainment. It doesn't work that way. The medium has an impact on the formation and development of the brain itself.
cyberpunk0 9y ago
Need less STEM power, need more STEA(rt)M power ;)
Chiba-City 9y ago
Donald Norman in "Things That Make Us Smart" points out distinguishing between education and entertainment is not impossible but difficult. Artworks are performance outputs like proofs or designs. Then there are material sciences of their realizations and reproductions. We heroize the lone artist but artworks are social "supply chain" creations. For whatever reasons, outside the weekly pop charts for advertising attentions, we rearrange shelves of old and new artworks we consider exemplary in some regard. Kids study the outcomes and techniques both and keep remaking the present. The fictional novel, moving picture fiction "talkie" and lyric 3 minute tune are very specific genres. I imagine there are folks here who might credibly argue specific computers games are exemplary artworks worthy of study and emulation. "Humanities" along with many other of our departmental labels is not such a great term of art.
WalterBright 9y ago
I read a lot of books. Is that really better than watching TV? I have my doubts.
coldtea 9y ago
>My point is simply that they are trivial. If all art suddenly disappeared it wouldnt really matter. If knowledge about, and/or the fruits of STEM stuff disappeared it would be a huge setback, it could cause civilization to collapse. I'd say it's mostly the opposite: civilization is what remains when you remove most of the STEM -- and culture surely is that. We could be savage warmongering apes with fully advanced STEM. And we often are.
icantdrive55 9y ago
"If all art suddenly disappeared it wouldnt really matter." A lot of art inspires people. How many young men saw that movie about Facebook, and didn't want to become the next billionaire? Art influences the masses. Sometimes for the better, and sometimes for the worst. That FB movie for the worse, in my world, but I felt that eay about Disco, and Cowboy hats that Travolta brough upon us. Art is everywhere. Now if we lost Banksy I don't think we would unravel.
keiferski 9y ago
It's comments like these that remind me why I don't work in Silicon Valley.
jly 9y ago
I get your point about disappearing art being reproducible, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the role art has played for humans throughout our existence. Not only does art greatly enhances the enjoyment of life, it's been a critically important survival tool throughout human history and pre-history. Even for primitive humans, art was used to help record and offload and pass on critical information through stories, waypoints/maps, and artworks. Our appreciation for beautiful forms, structures, rhythms, etc, is an evolutionary adaptation that helps us arouse interest and fascination with our world, inspiring us on to greater things and ultimately increasing our survival. This is why our appreciation of natural beauty and art is universal across cultures and time. Many have written and talked about these ideas. STEM doesn't happen without art. Technology, on the other hand, has put us and our planet on the brink of extinction. Obviously we are now 'all in' on STEM for the survival of modern civilization, but there are a lot of people living in the world today who may disagree about the fruits of progress.

Santosh83 9y ago

Not everything we produce needs to be valued by how much they contribute to industrial/scientific civilization. I specify that because loss of much of STEM won't lead to collapse of civilization, it will only set us back to the dark ages. We'll begin again. Same as we'd do if all art disappeared.

everyone 9y ago
Its not the same. If all existing art disappeared we would still be able to produce art at our current rate with no discernible or measurable difference in its quality or effect. Scientific or technological progress on the other hand is iterative. More advanced theories are slowly formulated on the backs of older ones. For precision tools for example you need to start off building crude tools with nothing, then use those to build the infrastructure that will allow you to build slightly more precise tools and so on.
- padraic7a 9y ago
  "Its not the same. If all existing art disappeared we would still be able to produce art at our current rate with no discernible or measurable difference in its quality or effect." That's a very strange idea. If all existing novels dissappeared do you think we would produce novels straight away? If all painting dissappeared would we paint with perspective, or in abstract, or just go for rough cave type paintings? How long would it take us to come up with rhyming metre, or the observational essay, cinema or stand-up? You think we'd start from having no references and create this immediately?
  - everyone 9y ago
    Maybe rhyming metre would never be recreated. In some cultures it wasnt. The phase space for what will entertain humans is seemingly almost infinitely detailed, there is no wrong or right way to do it. Eg. people can dance to banging rocks together just as effectively as to Mozart. On the other hand, there is only one Pythagoras' theorem, and an infinitude of similar incorrect theorems. We postulate that intelligent aliens should discover Pythagoras' theorem but not Jazz or De Stijl.
- Santosh83 9y ago
  They're not the same I agree. Which is why saying art is trivial and by implication disposable as compared to science is not IMO a healthy way to look at it. They are two sides of the same coin the way I see it. Through both we ultimately seek to understand reality inside and outside ourselves. I mean think about... why do we look at the stars? Why do we want to visit other planets? Why do we want to understand molecules and atoms? It's not all for the mere utility of being able to control materials and forces and therefore make our lives physically comfortable, though it's obviously a very important side effect. The core reason is we want to understand the meaning & beauty underlying reality, and art tries to do the same in a different way. So the way I see it, loss of STEM knowledge will set us back materially, while loss of all art and philosophy will set us back equally grievously in another sense.

mnem 9y ago

How much less of a budget would NASA get without entertainment such as Star Wars to fire people's imagination?

sanderjd 9y ago

> If all art suddenly disappeared it wouldnt really matter. Ugh. This is so arrogant. Take a step back, talk to some people outside this bubble, of different ages, from different parts of the world, and not just on the internet. Get a sense for how they want to live their lives, for what's important to them. Then come back to this opinion you hold so strongly and question it honestly.

everyone 9y ago
What bubble? Please do tell. I hope you're not arrogantly making assumptions about me. If all art disappeared, sure almost everyone on the planet would be initially upset and unhappy about it. But we'd just continue to make more, humans make art compulsively and instinctively. Eg. In archaeology the signs of art are often equated with the presence of modern humans. Scientific discovery on the other hand does not come naturally, one must subvert ones natural common sense and intuition and use tools like math and the scientific method. Every discovery is hard fought. Also art has no endgame, with enough science and technology we could create AI, the technological singularity, explore the galaxy, achieve literal immortality. With the best art and the happiest people it would all still certainly be erased by the sun going nova, or even just by a medium sized asteroid. ps. Heres another one..What if all art more than 50 years old disappeared? Most people mightnt even care or notice.
- c22 9y ago
  > Also art has no endgame, with enough science and technology we could create AI, the technological singularity, explore the galaxy, achieve literal immortality. It sounds like in your scenario art is the endgame. What else will we do with our immortal selves once we've reached technological singularity?
  - everyone 9y ago
    Yeah, once we've done that we can relax. Now, when our very survival is in question is not a good time to squander our limited resources on decadence. .. Its like, youre starving but instead of going out to hunt you spend all day masturbating. Thats us as a species right now :)

wallacoloo 9y ago

I'm surprised I haven't heard this point of view before. In the past I've often thought that the amount of value I get from enjoying the humanities is _completely_ disproportionate to the amount I pay for them. The majority of my leisure time is spent consuming art. But if I told someone that I spend $1000/yr purchasing music, they would likely be a little surprised. At the very least I would be an outlier. But I can relate to the other point of view that there is a _lot_ of other work being done today that enables the humanities to be enjoyed in the first place, so maybe valuing the direct product of the humanities at only $500-$1000/yr isn't _that_ far away from their true value. I'm still not entirely convinced, but it's true that if the sharing of art vanished, I would find other ways to fill the gap without a huge amount of trouble (thought likely a large chunk of that would be me creating art for myself)

13of40 9y ago

Inasmuch as cable TV is art, it would cause riots.

lj3 9y ago

Arts aren't just entertainment. They're a reflection of the soul of a culture and exist long after that culture is dead. If you look at every culture ever recorded in human history, you'll note there is a direct correlation between a culture's progression in art and a culture's progression in science and technology. That said, I agree with you that most written literature has very little to offer most people. Most pieces of literature bear that designation because they are "teachable" in one form or another. Some are chosen because they perfect one very specific aspect of the craft of writing. Others, like Finnegan's Wake, are like P vs NP in that they provide an infinitely complex problem for intelligent minds to spend lifetimes chewing on without ever reaching a conclusion. Something else to keep in mind: the medium is the message. The medium a piece of art chooses is significant. TV and movies will rot your brain regardless of whether it's The Big Bang Theory or Citizen Kane. Reading will improve your brain, regardless of whether you're reading Danielle Steel or Chaucer.

everyone 9y ago
"the medium is the message. The medium a piece of art chooses is significant. TV and movies will rot your brain regardless of whether it's The Big Bang Theory or Citizen Kane. Reading will improve your brain, regardless of whether you're reading Danielle Steel or Chaucer." I have not heard that before. The medium a piece of art chooses is significant, yes, (and in a lot of cases the creator chooses the wrong medium, eg. there are plenty of computer games out there that really want to be films, they dont make use of the strengths of the medium and even fight against it.) The rest, I dont agree with. Imo big bang, citizen kane, danielle Steel and chaucer are all somewhat equatable, because they are all fiction/entertainment. Personally I'd rate something educational or non-fiction over fiction in any medium
- lj3 9y ago
  You're making the mistake of thinking that all fiction is entertainment. It's not. There's a reason humans are hard wired to share stories. > Imo big bang, citizen kane, danielle Steel and chaucer are all somewhat equatable, because they are all fiction/entertainment. It doesn't work that way. The medium has an impact on the formation and development of the brain itself.

cyberpunk0 9y ago

Need less STEM power, need more STEA(rt)M power ;)

Chiba-City 9y ago

Donald Norman in "Things That Make Us Smart" points out distinguishing between education and entertainment is not impossible but difficult. Artworks are performance outputs like proofs or designs. Then there are material sciences of their realizations and reproductions. We heroize the lone artist but artworks are social "supply chain" creations. For whatever reasons, outside the weekly pop charts for advertising attentions, we rearrange shelves of old and new artworks we consider exemplary in some regard. Kids study the outcomes and techniques both and keep remaking the present. The fictional novel, moving picture fiction "talkie" and lyric 3 minute tune are very specific genres. I imagine there are folks here who might credibly argue specific computers games are exemplary artworks worthy of study and emulation. "Humanities" along with many other of our departmental labels is not such a great term of art.

WalterBright 9y ago

I read a lot of books. Is that really better than watching TV? I have my doubts.

coldtea 9y ago

>My point is simply that they are trivial. If all art suddenly disappeared it wouldnt really matter. If knowledge about, and/or the fruits of STEM stuff disappeared it would be a huge setback, it could cause civilization to collapse. I'd say it's mostly the opposite: civilization is what remains when you remove most of the STEM -- and culture surely is that. We could be savage warmongering apes with fully advanced STEM. And we often are.

icantdrive55 9y ago

"If all art suddenly disappeared it wouldnt really matter." A lot of art inspires people. How many young men saw that movie about Facebook, and didn't want to become the next billionaire? Art influences the masses. Sometimes for the better, and sometimes for the worst. That FB movie for the worse, in my world, but I felt that eay about Disco, and Cowboy hats that Travolta brough upon us. Art is everywhere. Now if we lost Banksy I don't think we would unravel.

keiferski 9y ago

It's comments like these that remind me why I don't work in Silicon Valley.

jly 9y ago

I get your point about disappearing art being reproducible, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the role art has played for humans throughout our existence. Not only does art greatly enhances the enjoyment of life, it's been a critically important survival tool throughout human history and pre-history. Even for primitive humans, art was used to help record and offload and pass on critical information through stories, waypoints/maps, and artworks. Our appreciation for beautiful forms, structures, rhythms, etc, is an evolutionary adaptation that helps us arouse interest and fascination with our world, inspiring us on to greater things and ultimately increasing our survival. This is why our appreciation of natural beauty and art is universal across cultures and time. Many have written and talked about these ideas. STEM doesn't happen without art. Technology, on the other hand, has put us and our planet on the brink of extinction. Obviously we are now 'all in' on STEM for the survival of modern civilization, but there are a lot of people living in the world today who may disagree about the fruits of progress.