6 ms·

Can I use this outside IntelliJ (Atom perhaps)? I despise JavaScript, GWT is underwhelming and Kotlin seems like a nice way to bypass these issues + React is be

by bitL 9y ago

Can I use this outside IntelliJ (Atom perhaps)? I despise JavaScript, GWT is underwhelming and Kotlin seems like a nice way to bypass these issues + React is becoming a de-facto standard. IntelliJ became too big/slow/feature creeped and I am not having good time with the latest code completion changes, so I am considering dropping it (PyCharm as well) for something more light-weight.

systems 9y ago
Well, I did comment once on the Koltin Jetbrains forum, about how hard they make to download ... just kotlin ... outside of the jetbrains ide and their response, on their forum, was that they are intentionally make hard to avoid the jetbrains ide while using kotlin now technically you still can, kotlin is open source, and you can download it standalone, if you search hard enough i am not really sure, how jetbrains think kotlin will help it long term to increase its sales .. but this seems to be one of their objectives .. they did not create kotlin just for the sake of it (and nothing wrong with that)
- bitL 9y ago
  I am happy JetBrains became a full-blown real software company (where I count only companies with their own programming language) instead of aping Atlassian (their main competitor), and Kotlin has some interesting ideas. They are closest to Borland we have these days; independent small company with quality development tools. Though the code completion quality dropped so much lately (e.g. in PyCharm it became completely useless) that I am now actively trying to find replacements.
  - systems 9y ago
    I wouldnt go as far as comparing them to borland Remember that the community edition is open source They are an open company and do offer a lot completly for free Borland was .. a very traditional closed company
    - hackerfromthefu 9y ago
      >> Borland was .. a very traditional closed company One of the great things about Borland was they published the source code to their VCL (their main platform library Delphi and C++ builder applications used). So you could read, learn from, troubleshoot and debug with the source code. At a time when Microsoft and most companies didn't. And the VCL design patterns were/are incredibly elegant, and studying them an excellent and accessible way for an interested programmer to learn some real software architecture skills.
  - on_and_off 9y ago
    >(e.g. in PyCharm it became completely useless) Very weird; what happened ? In java/kotlin it is as great as ever in Android Studio
    - bitL 9y ago
      No idea; I do extensive tensorflow/keras/opencv/numpy/openai stuff and code completion there is a joke, I just get completely unusable hints. Maybe I am A/B tested by them or something, but I am forced to have browser with documentation/stack overflow opened these days. And IntelliJ used to be much better for me at around IDEA 12, since then code completion doesn't predict my typical choices at top places, I need to scroll down more and more. So that one is individual style-based. I also long for the days of simplicity as I refuse to keep huge amount of "how to do a certain thing in certain IDE" in my head; IDE should help me with the complexity of language and not impose another time sink on me.
      - stickfigure 9y ago
        Code completion has always been hit-or-miss in dynamic languages like python. Is it possible that something in your libraries (or maybe something in your programming style) changed such that the IDE can no longer make good guesses? FWIW I've never found IntelliJ code completion in Javascript, Ruby, or Python to be very accurate. It's fantastic in Java and Typescript.
        yawaramin 9y ago
        It's also fantastic for JavaScript in VSCode, thanks to VSCode automatically downloading type definitions.
- abiox 9y ago
  > and their response, on their forum, was that they are intentionally make hard to avoid the jetbrains ide while using kotlin do you have a link for this?
  - systems 9y ago
    https://discuss.kotlinlang.org/t/downloading-the-stand-alone-compiler-ux/4074 https://discuss.kotlinlang.org/t/downloading-the-stand-alone...
    - crispinb 9y ago
      It's good you supplied the link, as you've misrepresented its contents somewhat. What they are discouraging downloads of is the standalone compiler, because if you want to compile outside of an IDE, gradle is the better choice. As alternatives they suggest their online REPL (to play and learn without installing anything), IntelliJ (unsurprisingly their favourite), gradle, or maven. The latter are about as fully-fledged build systems as you can imagine and are easily used with any editor. I'm sure there will be gradle plug-ins available for VS.Code or Atom, or a gradle mode for emacs.
- vbezhenar 9y ago
  I think you misunderstood something. You should use Gradle for standalone builds. You definitely don't have to use Idea.
nameless912 9y ago
> React is becoming a de-facto standard The Vue.JS community would beg to differ. But yeah, if JetBrains could implement something like the Rust Language Server for Kotlin I would be so happy.
- trumpownsyou420 9y ago
  lolvuejs
- warent 9y ago
  Agreed with this. I use both React and Vue intensively, day to day. React and Vue both have pros and cons, but I would argue it's actually easier to optimize Vue apps. Vue's reactive nature actually is superior, because something like Redux requires destroying, regenerating, and messaging around entire objects. This can create serious problems when, for example, trying to use Chrome APIs or manage component renders. Also, although JSX is nice for developers, it's not friendly to designers. Vue, however, supports single file components that are very designer-friendly. FWIW, Alibaba began creating their own native framework with Vue called Weex, which is now part of the Apache project. https://weex.apache.org/ https://weex.apache.org/
  - acemarke 9y ago
    Can you clarify how Redux causes issues in those scenarios?
  - yawaramin 9y ago
    Redux is not actually necessary for React, you can manage state without it.
- bitL 9y ago
  I'll take a look at Vue.JS, thanks! Is there a way to use it from Kotlin or some other "sane" language as well?
  - nameless912 9y ago
    It has pretty decent TypeScript bindings iirc, but the fundamental thing it does is prevent the need to mix HTML and JS inline. If you can hold your nose at Javascript, most of the project generators for Vue.JS seem to prefer using ES6/ESnext syntax so the language is much more tolerable than, e.g. Angular and Circa-2007 JavaScript.
hypnos_phi 9y ago
You definitely can. The only major requirement is Java being installed on your machine. This project installs Kotlin compiler and runtime as npm dependencies

by bitL 9y ago

systems 9y ago

Well, I did comment once on the Koltin Jetbrains forum, about how hard they make to download ... just kotlin ... outside of the jetbrains ide and their response, on their forum, was that they are intentionally make hard to avoid the jetbrains ide while using kotlin now technically you still can, kotlin is open source, and you can download it standalone, if you search hard enough i am not really sure, how jetbrains think kotlin will help it long term to increase its sales .. but this seems to be one of their objectives .. they did not create kotlin just for the sake of it (and nothing wrong with that)

bitL 9y ago
I am happy JetBrains became a full-blown real software company (where I count only companies with their own programming language) instead of aping Atlassian (their main competitor), and Kotlin has some interesting ideas. They are closest to Borland we have these days; independent small company with quality development tools. Though the code completion quality dropped so much lately (e.g. in PyCharm it became completely useless) that I am now actively trying to find replacements.
- systems 9y ago
  I wouldnt go as far as comparing them to borland Remember that the community edition is open source They are an open company and do offer a lot completly for free Borland was .. a very traditional closed company
  - hackerfromthefu 9y ago
    >> Borland was .. a very traditional closed company One of the great things about Borland was they published the source code to their VCL (their main platform library Delphi and C++ builder applications used). So you could read, learn from, troubleshoot and debug with the source code. At a time when Microsoft and most companies didn't. And the VCL design patterns were/are incredibly elegant, and studying them an excellent and accessible way for an interested programmer to learn some real software architecture skills.
- on_and_off 9y ago
  >(e.g. in PyCharm it became completely useless) Very weird; what happened ? In java/kotlin it is as great as ever in Android Studio
  - bitL 9y ago
    No idea; I do extensive tensorflow/keras/opencv/numpy/openai stuff and code completion there is a joke, I just get completely unusable hints. Maybe I am A/B tested by them or something, but I am forced to have browser with documentation/stack overflow opened these days. And IntelliJ used to be much better for me at around IDEA 12, since then code completion doesn't predict my typical choices at top places, I need to scroll down more and more. So that one is individual style-based. I also long for the days of simplicity as I refuse to keep huge amount of "how to do a certain thing in certain IDE" in my head; IDE should help me with the complexity of language and not impose another time sink on me.
    - stickfigure 9y ago
      Code completion has always been hit-or-miss in dynamic languages like python. Is it possible that something in your libraries (or maybe something in your programming style) changed such that the IDE can no longer make good guesses? FWIW I've never found IntelliJ code completion in Javascript, Ruby, or Python to be very accurate. It's fantastic in Java and Typescript.
      - yawaramin 9y ago
        It's also fantastic for JavaScript in VSCode, thanks to VSCode automatically downloading type definitions.
abiox 9y ago
> and their response, on their forum, was that they are intentionally make hard to avoid the jetbrains ide while using kotlin do you have a link for this?
- systems 9y ago
  https://discuss.kotlinlang.org/t/downloading-the-stand-alone-compiler-ux/4074 https://discuss.kotlinlang.org/t/downloading-the-stand-alone...
  - crispinb 9y ago
    It's good you supplied the link, as you've misrepresented its contents somewhat. What they are discouraging downloads of is the standalone compiler, because if you want to compile outside of an IDE, gradle is the better choice. As alternatives they suggest their online REPL (to play and learn without installing anything), IntelliJ (unsurprisingly their favourite), gradle, or maven. The latter are about as fully-fledged build systems as you can imagine and are easily used with any editor. I'm sure there will be gradle plug-ins available for VS.Code or Atom, or a gradle mode for emacs.
vbezhenar 9y ago
I think you misunderstood something. You should use Gradle for standalone builds. You definitely don't have to use Idea.

nameless912 9y ago

> React is becoming a de-facto standard The Vue.JS community would beg to differ. But yeah, if JetBrains could implement something like the Rust Language Server for Kotlin I would be so happy.

trumpownsyou420 9y ago
lolvuejs
warent 9y ago
Agreed with this. I use both React and Vue intensively, day to day. React and Vue both have pros and cons, but I would argue it's actually easier to optimize Vue apps. Vue's reactive nature actually is superior, because something like Redux requires destroying, regenerating, and messaging around entire objects. This can create serious problems when, for example, trying to use Chrome APIs or manage component renders. Also, although JSX is nice for developers, it's not friendly to designers. Vue, however, supports single file components that are very designer-friendly. FWIW, Alibaba began creating their own native framework with Vue called Weex, which is now part of the Apache project. https://weex.apache.org/ https://weex.apache.org/
- acemarke 9y ago
  Can you clarify how Redux causes issues in those scenarios?
- yawaramin 9y ago
  Redux is not actually necessary for React, you can manage state without it.
bitL 9y ago
I'll take a look at Vue.JS, thanks! Is there a way to use it from Kotlin or some other "sane" language as well?
- nameless912 9y ago
  It has pretty decent TypeScript bindings iirc, but the fundamental thing it does is prevent the need to mix HTML and JS inline. If you can hold your nose at Javascript, most of the project generators for Vue.JS seem to prefer using ES6/ESnext syntax so the language is much more tolerable than, e.g. Angular and Circa-2007 JavaScript.

hypnos_phi 9y ago

You definitely can. The only major requirement is Java being installed on your machine. This project installs Kotlin compiler and runtime as npm dependencies