7 ms·

I don’t see the assumption of the cause in the PDF (difficult to read on this tiny mobile device). Could it be iron ore or something else affecting the magneti

by otp124 9y ago

I don’t see the assumption of the cause in the PDF (difficult to read on this tiny mobile device). Could it be iron ore or something else affecting the magnetic fields? Does this happen elsewhere on earth?

Reason077 9y ago
Seems unlikely to be a natural phenomenon, considering it's never been noticed before. Could be the Russians are up to something? Jamming GPS signals would be a significant strategic advantage in war time.
- gchokov 9y ago
  They are doing this in bigger Russian cities. GPSes often doesn't work in downtown Moscow or St. Petersburg. There's plenty of information available on the internet about this. Also, they have their own positioning system, that is also available worldwide - Glonass
  - johansch 9y ago
    Care to link to any of that information?
    - mshook 9y ago
      Stuff like: https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/the-kremlin-eats-gps-for-breakfast-55823 https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/the-kremlin-eats-gps-for... http://money.cnn.com/2016/12/02/technology/kremlin-gps-signals/ http://money.cnn.com/2016/12/02/technology/kremlin-gps-signa...
- gsich 9y ago
  It's bad if you relly on one and only system. As there is NAVSTAR GPS, Glonass and Galileo you'll have to jam your own system too.
  - cpncrunch 9y ago
    All current aviation GNSS systems only use GPS (US system) as far as I'm aware. There are some GLONASS dongles such as Garmin GLO, but they're not IFR approved.
  - jhayward 9y ago
    GPS and Galileo use the same frequency for their public service. Jamming one gets them both. Glonass is a couple hundred megaherz away from GPS L1.
    - gsich 9y ago
      So there is no reason NOT to support Glonass.
      - burntrelish1273 9y ago
        Except the Russians run and control it and may consider opportunities to weaponize it offensively against unsuspecting Western users. The best bet is to use as many positing systems as possible in order to prevent attacks narrowly targeting one positioning system.
        gsich 9y ago
        The same can be said to NAVSTAR GPS. The only system which is not primarly built for military uses is Galileo. Yes, that's what I am saying. Don't rely on one system. Using more also increases accuracy.
- lawl 9y ago
  Could just as well be the US. When selective availability was disabled they said they will come up with something new to deny hostile forces accurate GPS. [0] > Develop measures to prevent the hostile use of GPS and its augmentations to ensure that the United States retains a military advantage without unduly disrupting or degrading civilian uses. GPS only being jammed at higher altitudes, but not on the ground fits the above pretty well imo. We don't know how this jamming would affect US military GPS usage, but it's not impossible to think that it doesn't. [0] https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/techops/navservices/gnss/gps/policy/presidential/?print=go#1 https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/at...
Ao7bei3s 9y ago
The two-sentence "Result of the Check" section ends with "and the strength increased the closer to the Russian helicopter wing". As professionals, they state the observations and facts and don't cross into the realm of speculation.
- vita17 9y ago
  So not iron ore. Iron curtain.
danbruc 9y ago
But after a few tens of meters in the air we see a noise signal. [...] The noise signal is on GPS L1 (1575.42 MHz) with 1 MHz bandwidth, see Figure 3-5. So the signal is jammed by something sending a noise signal around the L1 frequency, whether intentionally or not.
- Animats 9y ago
  Look at the screenshot from the spectrum analyzer. That's a very specific signal, uniform in power, centered on the L1 frequency, and contained to a 1MHz bandwidth. That's intentional, not some random event.
  - danbruc 9y ago
    It surly looks like intentional jamming but I did not want to draw any conclusions that are not in the source. It certainly does not look like any random event but it could still be unintentional, e.g. someone just forgot to turn of his GPS jammer or accidentally broadcasts on that frequency, but that is admittedly not the most plausible explanation. I am also not sure how big a deal the whole thing is, I would assume that GPS jamming is not too uncommon to protect potential high profile target.
- jhayward 9y ago
  The jamming is very highly specific to GPS. Chances of it being unintentional are miniscule.
sorenjan 9y ago
The signal came from Russia just weeks before their Zapad exercise, and was clearly intentional. https://www.nrk.no/finnmark/stoy-fra-russland-slo-ut-gps-signaler-for-norske-fly-1.13720305 https://www.nrk.no/finnmark/stoy-fra-russland-slo-ut-gps-sig... This time it was only blocking GPS signals. Previously this year Russia spoofed GPS signals over the black sea, sending false position data to ships in the area. https://maritime-executive.com/editorials/mass-gps-spoofing-attack-in-black-sea https://maritime-executive.com/editorials/mass-gps-spoofing-...

by otp124 9y ago

Reason077 9y ago

Seems unlikely to be a natural phenomenon, considering it's never been noticed before. Could be the Russians are up to something? Jamming GPS signals would be a significant strategic advantage in war time.

gchokov 9y ago
They are doing this in bigger Russian cities. GPSes often doesn't work in downtown Moscow or St. Petersburg. There's plenty of information available on the internet about this. Also, they have their own positioning system, that is also available worldwide - Glonass
- johansch 9y ago
  Care to link to any of that information?
  - mshook 9y ago
    Stuff like: https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/the-kremlin-eats-gps-for-breakfast-55823 https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/the-kremlin-eats-gps-for... http://money.cnn.com/2016/12/02/technology/kremlin-gps-signals/ http://money.cnn.com/2016/12/02/technology/kremlin-gps-signa...
gsich 9y ago
It's bad if you relly on one and only system. As there is NAVSTAR GPS, Glonass and Galileo you'll have to jam your own system too.
- cpncrunch 9y ago
  All current aviation GNSS systems only use GPS (US system) as far as I'm aware. There are some GLONASS dongles such as Garmin GLO, but they're not IFR approved.
- jhayward 9y ago
  GPS and Galileo use the same frequency for their public service. Jamming one gets them both. Glonass is a couple hundred megaherz away from GPS L1.
  - gsich 9y ago
    So there is no reason NOT to support Glonass.
    - burntrelish1273 9y ago
      Except the Russians run and control it and may consider opportunities to weaponize it offensively against unsuspecting Western users. The best bet is to use as many positing systems as possible in order to prevent attacks narrowly targeting one positioning system.
      - gsich 9y ago
        The same can be said to NAVSTAR GPS. The only system which is not primarly built for military uses is Galileo. Yes, that's what I am saying. Don't rely on one system. Using more also increases accuracy.
lawl 9y ago
Could just as well be the US. When selective availability was disabled they said they will come up with something new to deny hostile forces accurate GPS. [0] > Develop measures to prevent the hostile use of GPS and its augmentations to ensure that the United States retains a military advantage without unduly disrupting or degrading civilian uses. GPS only being jammed at higher altitudes, but not on the ground fits the above pretty well imo. We don't know how this jamming would affect US military GPS usage, but it's not impossible to think that it doesn't. [0] https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/techops/navservices/gnss/gps/policy/presidential/?print=go#1 https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/at...

Ao7bei3s 9y ago

The two-sentence "Result of the Check" section ends with "and the strength increased the closer to the Russian helicopter wing". As professionals, they state the observations and facts and don't cross into the realm of speculation.

vita17 9y ago
So not iron ore. Iron curtain.

danbruc 9y ago

But after a few tens of meters in the air we see a noise signal. [...] The noise signal is on GPS L1 (1575.42 MHz) with 1 MHz bandwidth, see Figure 3-5. So the signal is jammed by something sending a noise signal around the L1 frequency, whether intentionally or not.

Animats 9y ago
Look at the screenshot from the spectrum analyzer. That's a very specific signal, uniform in power, centered on the L1 frequency, and contained to a 1MHz bandwidth. That's intentional, not some random event.
- danbruc 9y ago
  It surly looks like intentional jamming but I did not want to draw any conclusions that are not in the source. It certainly does not look like any random event but it could still be unintentional, e.g. someone just forgot to turn of his GPS jammer or accidentally broadcasts on that frequency, but that is admittedly not the most plausible explanation. I am also not sure how big a deal the whole thing is, I would assume that GPS jamming is not too uncommon to protect potential high profile target.
jhayward 9y ago
The jamming is very highly specific to GPS. Chances of it being unintentional are miniscule.

sorenjan 9y ago

The signal came from Russia just weeks before their Zapad exercise, and was clearly intentional. https://www.nrk.no/finnmark/stoy-fra-russland-slo-ut-gps-signaler-for-norske-fly-1.13720305 https://www.nrk.no/finnmark/stoy-fra-russland-slo-ut-gps-sig... This time it was only blocking GPS signals. Previously this year Russia spoofed GPS signals over the black sea, sending false position data to ships in the area. https://maritime-executive.com/editorials/mass-gps-spoofing-attack-in-black-sea https://maritime-executive.com/editorials/mass-gps-spoofing-...