6 ms·

Well, the hour rate in europe is much higher than in Asia because the living costs are much lower. So if you follow that principle, how is 155 USD low for 3 da

Well, the hour rate in europe is much higher than in Asia because the living costs are much lower. So if you follow that principle, how is 155 USD low for 3 days work? its 1000 CNY

literallycancer 9y ago
Why should the number be based on living costs? For assembly line workers with no skill requirement, yes. For engineers? Definitely not. >So if you follow that principle, how is 155 USD low for 3 days work? its 1000 CNY Let's see: Bangalore is (only) 5 times cheaper than SF.[1] So it's hardly 3 days of work. Shanghai is 2.2 times cheaper.[2] 1 - https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&country2=India&city2=Bangalore https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... 2 - https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=China&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&city2=Shanghai https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
- chillydawg 9y ago
  To be fair, bay area wages are not high because the people there are particularly special, they're high because there's no space and everyone wants to be there. So, yes, wages do reflect costs of living, to a certain extent.
- GordonS 9y ago
  > Why should the number be based on living costs? Because that's basically the whole point of globalisation. Both parties benefit, I don't see what the problem is.
  - literallycancer 9y ago
    Are you living in India and working for that money, by a chance?
    - GordonS 9y ago
      No, I'm from the UK. I have worked with many Indian and Chinese devs on the past, so I have some knowledge of the outsourcing industry.
  - a_imho 9y ago
    Geographic location is a rather arbitrary criteria for wage discrimination especially doing remote work [1]. I would not call the opportunity to be exploited a benefit exactly, even though I admit the alternatives can be worse. [1]https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-wage-gap-look-like/ https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-w...
    - GordonS 9y ago
      There is nothing arbitrary about it - different geographical regions have different living costs and different market rates. I've worked with many Indian devs over the past 10 years or so, and have become good friends with a few. One of those is freelancing for US and EU clients - he is earning far more than he would be paid by a local company, and gets to choose which jobs he takes on, as well as his working hours. He is of course very happy with this, and very far from being 'exploited'.
      - a_imho 9y ago
        Do you think the prices offered on freelancing sites are fair? Would you be willing to work for such prices? Why do you think freelancing is considered a race to the bottom? Why do you care which ISP someone uses when committing to a repository or login to VM? On the other end of things, would I move to a more expensive neighborhood if that meant I will get a bigger salary? While I don't know about you or your friend, my answer would be yes please. Fair is when equal work is equally compensated. When you earn significantly less than others in roughly the same position you are being exploited and it does not matter whether you can make ends meet.
        GordonS 9y ago
        > would I move to a more expensive neighborhood if that meant I will get a bigger salary We're talking about different countries here. It's not quite so simple to just move to another country. > Fair is when equal work is equally compensated So it's unfair that an Indian dev working in India for an Indian company earns less than a US dev working in the US for a US company? Different countries have very different economies. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one - local economy, market rates and living costs still seem extremely relevant to me.
  - klibertp 9y ago
    > Both parties benefit, I don't see what the problem is. The problem, as always in this kind of situation, is how unequally the benefits are distributed. If the investor pays 4-5 times (and that's a low end) less for something, while the worker gets 10% more compared to doing the same locally then it's unfair, even if both sides "benefit". It's also natural for investors to seek the lowest prices they can get. That's why there are laws like minimum wage and other protections of the workers. The globalization is not just a way of getting things for cheap, it also a workaround for laws which prohibit investors from paying too little. It's unfair, in my opinion, even if the worker does benefit. It gets much worse when the workers don't benefit at all. For example, in EU, we currently have a heated debate about delegated workers - people employed in one country and working (and living) in another. Companies do this to dodge the laws - minimum wage, social benefits, and so on - of their own country, while the workers suffer the higher costs of living in the richer country. It also makes the richer country native workers screwed. It's probably going to become illegal in the next couple of years. People working remotely are in a different situation, in that they indeed live in a cheaper place. They still get paid much less than the minimum wage of the richer country where the investor comes from, which I think is also unfair. Also, the "cheaper place" is often not really - the prices in these countries are getting ever closer to the richer countries, while the wages lag behind the prices significantly. In other words, there should be - and is, in many places - a limit on how badly workers can be exploited. The globalization is a loophole which circumvents these laws. I hope it will get closed in the future. EDIT: note that it's definitely not the only way globalization affects people and many effects of globalization are positive. Just not this one, in my opinion.
    - a_imho 9y ago
      Regarding EU, there is a "Equal pay for equal work!" campaign. https://www.wageunion.eu/ https://www.wageunion.eu/
    - cjalmeida 9y ago
      Your observation only holds in the short term. Due to globalization, the avg wage of the "exploited" Chinese workers has grown from 1600 to 67000 CNY in the last 30 years. Even accounting for the higher inflation, the US/West wage gap has shrunk considerably within a generation. India hasn't seen such growth exactly because they didn't embrace globalization to the same level China did. Indian policies are much more left leaning, market unfriendedly.
vbezhenar 9y ago
iPhone or Macbook price is roughly the same everywhere. Cost of living is a tiny part of expenses for a competent worker.
- robjan 9y ago
  Developers in the developing world typically don't use iPhones and Macbook pros. You can easily get a "good enough" machine for 10% of the price of a Macbook.
  - arvinsim 9y ago
    If you use shitty tools, you get shitty results.
    - cjalmeida 9y ago
      What? For about $200 bucks you can buy an refurbished or pre-owned decent i5 desktop system. More than enough for JavaScript webdev. Heck, I guess I could use Raspberry PI and Vim for that
    - himlion 9y ago
      I get exactly the same results on an old thinkpad as on the newest macbook.
    - greenyoda 9y ago
      A developer's primary tool is their intellect. Using an expensive Macbook or a particular programming language won't magically make a lousy developer into a good developer. Note that all the hardware and software that were used to create the original internet or Unix or Emacs (dumb 80x24 CRT terminals hooked up to mainframes or mini-computers running low-level languages) were shitty tools by today's standards, yet amazing things were done with them by smart people.
      - arvinsim 9y ago
        Try doing modern development with those old tools.Let's see if you are as productive as you think. It's insane to think that modern tooling doesn't affect results at all.
gbraad 9y ago
Competent developers get 200+CNY an hour here in Beijing (so that would be pay for half a day of work) For this price you can only expect to find students to do the work. Note: food might be cheaper, but consider housing is very expensive here... 0.5M+ USD for about 60m^2. If I take this pay and calculate it as a contracted worker, he would receive about 8000 CNY and this is considered a low pay.
srinathrajaram 9y ago
Let us not pretend that the price is driven by living costs. It is driven by desperate people who will work below cost to get a foot in the door.
xiphias 9y ago
For me as a software engineer who could move anywhere in the world, relative living costs never mattered, only absolute savings, as I can use it in any country, which is salary minus living cost. Zurich gave me the best savings, but I think many people (including great software developers in China) think similarly.

Well, the hour rate in europe is much higher than in Asia because the living costs are much lower. So if you follow that principle, how is 155 USD low for 3 days work? its 1000 CNY

literallycancer 9y ago

Why should the number be based on living costs? For assembly line workers with no skill requirement, yes. For engineers? Definitely not. >So if you follow that principle, how is 155 USD low for 3 days work? its 1000 CNY Let's see: Bangalore is (only) 5 times cheaper than SF.[1] So it's hardly 3 days of work. Shanghai is 2.2 times cheaper.[2] 1 - https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&country2=India&city2=Bangalore https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... 2 - https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=China&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&city2=Shanghai https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

chillydawg 9y ago
To be fair, bay area wages are not high because the people there are particularly special, they're high because there's no space and everyone wants to be there. So, yes, wages do reflect costs of living, to a certain extent.
GordonS 9y ago
> Why should the number be based on living costs? Because that's basically the whole point of globalisation. Both parties benefit, I don't see what the problem is.
- literallycancer 9y ago
  Are you living in India and working for that money, by a chance?
  - GordonS 9y ago
    No, I'm from the UK. I have worked with many Indian and Chinese devs on the past, so I have some knowledge of the outsourcing industry.
- a_imho 9y ago
  Geographic location is a rather arbitrary criteria for wage discrimination especially doing remote work [1]. I would not call the opportunity to be exploited a benefit exactly, even though I admit the alternatives can be worse. [1]https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-wage-gap-look-like/ https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-w...
  - GordonS 9y ago
    There is nothing arbitrary about it - different geographical regions have different living costs and different market rates. I've worked with many Indian devs over the past 10 years or so, and have become good friends with a few. One of those is freelancing for US and EU clients - he is earning far more than he would be paid by a local company, and gets to choose which jobs he takes on, as well as his working hours. He is of course very happy with this, and very far from being 'exploited'.
    - a_imho 9y ago
      Do you think the prices offered on freelancing sites are fair? Would you be willing to work for such prices? Why do you think freelancing is considered a race to the bottom? Why do you care which ISP someone uses when committing to a repository or login to VM? On the other end of things, would I move to a more expensive neighborhood if that meant I will get a bigger salary? While I don't know about you or your friend, my answer would be yes please. Fair is when equal work is equally compensated. When you earn significantly less than others in roughly the same position you are being exploited and it does not matter whether you can make ends meet.
      - GordonS 9y ago
        > would I move to a more expensive neighborhood if that meant I will get a bigger salary We're talking about different countries here. It's not quite so simple to just move to another country. > Fair is when equal work is equally compensated So it's unfair that an Indian dev working in India for an Indian company earns less than a US dev working in the US for a US company? Different countries have very different economies. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one - local economy, market rates and living costs still seem extremely relevant to me.
- klibertp 9y ago
  > Both parties benefit, I don't see what the problem is. The problem, as always in this kind of situation, is how unequally the benefits are distributed. If the investor pays 4-5 times (and that's a low end) less for something, while the worker gets 10% more compared to doing the same locally then it's unfair, even if both sides "benefit". It's also natural for investors to seek the lowest prices they can get. That's why there are laws like minimum wage and other protections of the workers. The globalization is not just a way of getting things for cheap, it also a workaround for laws which prohibit investors from paying too little. It's unfair, in my opinion, even if the worker does benefit. It gets much worse when the workers don't benefit at all. For example, in EU, we currently have a heated debate about delegated workers - people employed in one country and working (and living) in another. Companies do this to dodge the laws - minimum wage, social benefits, and so on - of their own country, while the workers suffer the higher costs of living in the richer country. It also makes the richer country native workers screwed. It's probably going to become illegal in the next couple of years. People working remotely are in a different situation, in that they indeed live in a cheaper place. They still get paid much less than the minimum wage of the richer country where the investor comes from, which I think is also unfair. Also, the "cheaper place" is often not really - the prices in these countries are getting ever closer to the richer countries, while the wages lag behind the prices significantly. In other words, there should be - and is, in many places - a limit on how badly workers can be exploited. The globalization is a loophole which circumvents these laws. I hope it will get closed in the future. EDIT: note that it's definitely not the only way globalization affects people and many effects of globalization are positive. Just not this one, in my opinion.
  - a_imho 9y ago
    Regarding EU, there is a "Equal pay for equal work!" campaign. https://www.wageunion.eu/ https://www.wageunion.eu/
  - cjalmeida 9y ago
    Your observation only holds in the short term. Due to globalization, the avg wage of the "exploited" Chinese workers has grown from 1600 to 67000 CNY in the last 30 years. Even accounting for the higher inflation, the US/West wage gap has shrunk considerably within a generation. India hasn't seen such growth exactly because they didn't embrace globalization to the same level China did. Indian policies are much more left leaning, market unfriendedly.

vbezhenar 9y ago

iPhone or Macbook price is roughly the same everywhere. Cost of living is a tiny part of expenses for a competent worker.

robjan 9y ago
Developers in the developing world typically don't use iPhones and Macbook pros. You can easily get a "good enough" machine for 10% of the price of a Macbook.
- arvinsim 9y ago
  If you use shitty tools, you get shitty results.
  - cjalmeida 9y ago
    What? For about $200 bucks you can buy an refurbished or pre-owned decent i5 desktop system. More than enough for JavaScript webdev. Heck, I guess I could use Raspberry PI and Vim for that
  - himlion 9y ago
    I get exactly the same results on an old thinkpad as on the newest macbook.
  - greenyoda 9y ago
    A developer's primary tool is their intellect. Using an expensive Macbook or a particular programming language won't magically make a lousy developer into a good developer. Note that all the hardware and software that were used to create the original internet or Unix or Emacs (dumb 80x24 CRT terminals hooked up to mainframes or mini-computers running low-level languages) were shitty tools by today's standards, yet amazing things were done with them by smart people.
    - arvinsim 9y ago
      Try doing modern development with those old tools.Let's see if you are as productive as you think. It's insane to think that modern tooling doesn't affect results at all.

gbraad 9y ago

Competent developers get 200+CNY an hour here in Beijing (so that would be pay for half a day of work) For this price you can only expect to find students to do the work. Note: food might be cheaper, but consider housing is very expensive here... 0.5M+ USD for about 60m^2. If I take this pay and calculate it as a contracted worker, he would receive about 8000 CNY and this is considered a low pay.

srinathrajaram 9y ago

Let us not pretend that the price is driven by living costs. It is driven by desperate people who will work below cost to get a foot in the door.

xiphias 9y ago

For me as a software engineer who could move anywhere in the world, relative living costs never mattered, only absolute savings, as I can use it in any country, which is salary minus living cost. Zurich gave me the best savings, but I think many people (including great software developers in China) think similarly.