4 ms·

The waivers aren't a subsidy.

by Fomite 9y ago

darawk 9y ago
The bill proposes taxing them. The waivers are a gift that has value. Not taxing them is the same as subsidizing them.
- Fomite 9y ago
  A mandatory gift that is of no material benefit to the student that is generated as an administrative process is not the kind of gift that should be taxed. This would be like taxing you because I asked you to hold onto a $20 bill for me while I reshuffled my wallet.
  - darawk 9y ago
    It's barter. The students are trading their time for an education. That is a value transfer. There is nothing mandatory about it. Each party is consensually entering into an agreement to transfer services that have non-trivial value. If you could simply escape taxation by bartering, you'd see a lot more bartering. But you don't, because barter is still legally taxable.
    - throwawayjava 9y ago
      No. As noted elsewhere, no education is provided through 90% of these courses. They meet zero times per week and have no real instructor. They are a book keeping exercise so that PhD students are still technically students while working in the lab, not an actual tangible educational course. This is a just a significant decrease in research funding that is, by default at least, implemented as a substantial tax increase on grad students (those bastards...?), who now pay tax on 40k/year of tuition for literally imaginary courses. I agree the situation is awkward and stupid, but the material effect is what matters. Without a corresponding increase in science and education funding this is basically an enormous cut to science funding and undergraduate education funding. And it's one that is by default shouldered exclusively by people making 20k / year.
      - Fomite 9y ago
        This. What it actually is is a tax cut funded by a stealthy cut to the NIH/NSF/DoE/CDC etc. research budgets. It's eating the seed corn. Quietly, but it's there.
        darawk 9y ago
        No, what was stealthy was funding it this way in the first place. If you want to fund something, fund it. Don't fund it through tax policy. Tax policy should be about revenue collection, not funding research.
        spaceseaman 9y ago
        But it's not funding anything! There is no actual income being made. This is imposing a tax on something that no one actually gets! It's an accounting procedure used by Universities so they can meet the requirements of you being a student by law. I am a PhD student. My tuition of $30,000/year is waived by the University of California since I take no classes and am purely doing research. I need to be a student for various tax purposes for both the University and myself. If the money from my waiver was taxed, I would somehow have to come up with an extra $10,000 out of nowhere! Where do I find that money? My PhD is my job. The government is not funding anything, and I feel you're using that terminology purely to muddy the issue. To be clear, I don't much care for your argument here. Regardless of your ideological concerns about the ideal way to tax stuff, this policy clearly hurts people who are already in a precarious financial position. It will have remarkably negative effects for students like me. I will simply have to drop out, and all of the domestic PhD students I know in STEM will as well. We can't afford to take out loans for taxes... This policy has a clear goal. It's impact is what matters. Simply demanding that the tax code be simplified is in this case ludicrous. You're really missing the forest for the trees here - this effectively kills all STEM PhDs in the United States. It's impact would be devastating.
        darawk 9y ago
        The fact that a policy hurts particular individuals is not a reason not to do it. To argue otherwise is to argue non-seriously. To argue otherwise on your own behalf, doubly-so. > I need to be a student for various tax purposes for both the University and myself. That sounds rather...Rube Goldbergian, doesn't it? Why do you think that is? That the university has to charge you a fee, and then waive it? Could it be that they are avoiding some other law, or regulation that is there, and that actually that law is the one that ought to be changed? Does it make sense to simply layer bureaucratic workarounds on top of each other? I'd say no, but some people like spaghetti code, I guess. > This policy has a clear goal. It's impact is what matters. Simply demanding that the tax code be simplified is in this case ludicrous. You're really missing the forest for the trees here - this effectively kills all STEM PhDs in the United States. It's impact would be devastating. No it wouldn't. Literally the only thing that would happen is universities would either: a) Change the absurd "we charge you tuition and then waive it" system. or b) Offset the cost delta via a stipend of some kind. It would not kill STEM, or any other kind of PhD program in the US, and it definitely wouldn't simply be passed on to students. If it did anything, it'd shift the balance more in favor of STEM PhDs and away from other, less remunerative degrees. But I doubt it'd even have that effect at the margin. And finally, any time the government gives a tax credit, they are funding something. Tax credits are identical to government checks. Understanding this is absolutely essential to thinking about politics. When you donate money to a charity and receive a tax deduction for doing so, the federal government is effectively matching some 30% of your contribution. The reason the government chooses to fund things in this way is that it is more palatable to people. Just as you are doing now, they don't see 'tax credits' as an expenditure. But the truth is that taking money out of revenue collection is the exact same thing as writing a check. And this confusion among the general republic is a prime contributor to government waste and economic inefficiency generally. EDIT: I should add, to be clear, that I don't think you or any PhD student should actually bear the burden of this tax. I'm saying that the tax policy being the way that it is is a bureaucratic workaround for a problem that is better solved another way, and it ought to be solved in that way, rather than addressed through tax policy.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

The waivers aren't a subsidy.

by Fomite 9y ago

The waivers aren't a subsidy.

darawk 9y ago

The bill proposes taxing them. The waivers are a gift that has value. Not taxing them is the same as subsidizing them.

Fomite 9y ago
A mandatory gift that is of no material benefit to the student that is generated as an administrative process is not the kind of gift that should be taxed. This would be like taxing you because I asked you to hold onto a $20 bill for me while I reshuffled my wallet.
- darawk 9y ago
  It's barter. The students are trading their time for an education. That is a value transfer. There is nothing mandatory about it. Each party is consensually entering into an agreement to transfer services that have non-trivial value. If you could simply escape taxation by bartering, you'd see a lot more bartering. But you don't, because barter is still legally taxable.
  - throwawayjava 9y ago
    No. As noted elsewhere, no education is provided through 90% of these courses. They meet zero times per week and have no real instructor. They are a book keeping exercise so that PhD students are still technically students while working in the lab, not an actual tangible educational course. This is a just a significant decrease in research funding that is, by default at least, implemented as a substantial tax increase on grad students (those bastards...?), who now pay tax on 40k/year of tuition for literally imaginary courses. I agree the situation is awkward and stupid, but the material effect is what matters. Without a corresponding increase in science and education funding this is basically an enormous cut to science funding and undergraduate education funding. And it's one that is by default shouldered exclusively by people making 20k / year.
    - Fomite 9y ago
      This. What it actually is is a tax cut funded by a stealthy cut to the NIH/NSF/DoE/CDC etc. research budgets. It's eating the seed corn. Quietly, but it's there.
      - darawk 9y ago
        No, what was stealthy was funding it this way in the first place. If you want to fund something, fund it. Don't fund it through tax policy. Tax policy should be about revenue collection, not funding research.
        spaceseaman 9y ago
        But it's not funding anything! There is no actual income being made. This is imposing a tax on something that no one actually gets! It's an accounting procedure used by Universities so they can meet the requirements of you being a student by law. I am a PhD student. My tuition of $30,000/year is waived by the University of California since I take no classes and am purely doing research. I need to be a student for various tax purposes for both the University and myself. If the money from my waiver was taxed, I would somehow have to come up with an extra $10,000 out of nowhere! Where do I find that money? My PhD is my job. The government is not funding anything, and I feel you're using that terminology purely to muddy the issue. To be clear, I don't much care for your argument here. Regardless of your ideological concerns about the ideal way to tax stuff, this policy clearly hurts people who are already in a precarious financial position. It will have remarkably negative effects for students like me. I will simply have to drop out, and all of the domestic PhD students I know in STEM will as well. We can't afford to take out loans for taxes... This policy has a clear goal. It's impact is what matters. Simply demanding that the tax code be simplified is in this case ludicrous. You're really missing the forest for the trees here - this effectively kills all STEM PhDs in the United States. It's impact would be devastating.
        darawk 9y ago
        The fact that a policy hurts particular individuals is not a reason not to do it. To argue otherwise is to argue non-seriously. To argue otherwise on your own behalf, doubly-so. > I need to be a student for various tax purposes for both the University and myself. That sounds rather...Rube Goldbergian, doesn't it? Why do you think that is? That the university has to charge you a fee, and then waive it? Could it be that they are avoiding some other law, or regulation that is there, and that actually that law is the one that ought to be changed? Does it make sense to simply layer bureaucratic workarounds on top of each other? I'd say no, but some people like spaghetti code, I guess. > This policy has a clear goal. It's impact is what matters. Simply demanding that the tax code be simplified is in this case ludicrous. You're really missing the forest for the trees here - this effectively kills all STEM PhDs in the United States. It's impact would be devastating. No it wouldn't. Literally the only thing that would happen is universities would either: a) Change the absurd "we charge you tuition and then waive it" system. or b) Offset the cost delta via a stipend of some kind. It would not kill STEM, or any other kind of PhD program in the US, and it definitely wouldn't simply be passed on to students. If it did anything, it'd shift the balance more in favor of STEM PhDs and away from other, less remunerative degrees. But I doubt it'd even have that effect at the margin. And finally, any time the government gives a tax credit, they are funding something. Tax credits are identical to government checks. Understanding this is absolutely essential to thinking about politics. When you donate money to a charity and receive a tax deduction for doing so, the federal government is effectively matching some 30% of your contribution. The reason the government chooses to fund things in this way is that it is more palatable to people. Just as you are doing now, they don't see 'tax credits' as an expenditure. But the truth is that taking money out of revenue collection is the exact same thing as writing a check. And this confusion among the general republic is a prime contributor to government waste and economic inefficiency generally. EDIT: I should add, to be clear, that I don't think you or any PhD student should actually bear the burden of this tax. I'm saying that the tax policy being the way that it is is a bureaucratic workaround for a problem that is better solved another way, and it ought to be solved in that way, rather than addressed through tax policy.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]