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The SIM card holder's size shows its age. It is literally as big as the A11 package. Such archaic things need to evolve or disappear. What's the status on elec

The SIM card holder's size shows its age. It is literally as big as the A11 package. Such archaic things need to evolve or disappear. What's the status on electronic SIM? We don't need a piece of plastic that holds a numeric key and takes up EXPENSIVE real-estate in one of the most densely packed electronic devices in the world. Apple doesn't have the leverage to sway the standards?

parent5446 9y ago
https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/4/16424740/google-pixel-2-xl-esim-technology-project-fi-first-ever https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/4/16424740/google-pixel-2-x...
- valuearb 9y ago
  The Pixel is a great example of how Google is trying to cast off the constraints of Android's distribution model. I really think they can do it, but it's going to take a long effort. Eventually all the cheap phones will be Android and Google/Samsung/Apple will fight for the premium market. And it's unclear how long Samsung will remain in the fight given their lack of control over the OS and hardware integration.
  - lovich 9y ago
    Will Samsung even want to stay in the fight if they can get themselves as the screen manufacturers for every phone? They make money on every iPhone already selling parts, not sure if they do so for Pixels. No sense digging for gold if you can sell the shovels though
mattnewton 9y ago
They have an electronic sim on the watch- I imagine that’s serving as a test bed for the carriers and for apple.
okanesen 9y ago
They did it with their most recent Apple Watch, which could be a first start to also bring it to the iPhone. They probably want to first get the adoption going, before making it available globally.
roywiggins 9y ago
Apple build something like this into the Apple Watch, I think. https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/12/the-cellular-enabled-apple-watch-has-the-sim-built-in/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/12/the-cellular-enabled-apple...
dzhiurgis 9y ago
But how does it work while travelling? Yes you can buy roaming packs, but local SIM cards are as low as 5$ for unlimited LTE.
- Freestyler_3 9y ago
  Wrong question. You should be wondering how walled off it is going to be. I mean it won't be that hard to make it so that you can easily load a different esim when traveling. It will have many slots, since it can just emulate more and more. But is that in everybody's interest?
- acchow 9y ago
  It would be great if you could attach service providers to your iPhone in iTunes or your Apple account page or something. You could set up service in another country before you even arrive and it will "just work" when you land.
  - lucaspiller 9y ago
    Technically this is already supported via the GSM standard. For example here is a Lithuanian company that lets you roam while there on their network without changing your SIM or paying your providers roaming fees: https://widerfi.com/ https://widerfi.com/ The issue is that getting phone providers to co-operate is basically impossible. Not just politics, but everyone has their own way of doing things, so you need a custom implementation for each provider. (Source: I used to work at an company who ran an SMS gateway)
    - dzhiurgis 9y ago
      Interesting that data roaming packs has increased the overall pricing in many eastern european countries, Bite Lithuania included. They probably anticipate this future where virtual phones will be exported to west.
stock_toaster 9y ago
> don't need a piece of plastic that holds a numeric key Doesn't a SIM include a small micro-controller and firmware (ref#1)? It isn't just a numeric key holder. In addition, wouldn't having an apple designed electronic SIM reduce what 3rd party firmware (hardware SIM card) is running on their devices? Seems like a good deal to me. ref#1: https://www.slideshare.net/c.enrique.ortiz/sim-card-overview https://www.slideshare.net/c.enrique.ortiz/sim-card-overview
- fermienrico 9y ago
  It doesn’t matter. My argument still stands regardless of what’s inside the chip holder and the card. The point is - it’s a relatively simple thing compared to the complexity of the rest of the phone. It needs to be eradicated.
  - michaelmrose 9y ago
    You have failed to establish this.
SadWebDeveloper 9y ago
Its funny that in the old days the main selling point of GSM/SIM-Cards were that you could physically change from phone to phone and kept your line (and contacts), now we the recent race to get things as little as possible and that virtually no one is using by default any of the extra-GSM functionalities has (contact backup), coming back to a non-physical identity as the solution (like in the CDMA days) that will force you to go to carrier every time you need to change yout phone and depend on 3rd party online services for the extra functionalities.
- FreakyT 9y ago
  Completely agree -- the magic of SIM cards is that they allow you to quickly switch providers. I find it ridiculous that people are clamoring for eSIMS, which as you point out is not moving forward, but moving backward to the old CDMA days when you had to plead with your carrier to reconfigure your phone.
  - acchow 9y ago
    That is not what people want an eSIM to be like.
  - rizwank 9y ago
    Proper eSIM and eUICC implementations should allow remote flashing - there is a bootstrap IMSI and allow overloading of additional. Apple SIM (sans ATT on iPad) is an early non standard implementation. But getting carriers to support the interchange is hard. Device manufacturers would love to remove the SIM card and make eSIM proprietary to lock their phones into a walled garden - “Pay to add your IMSI to this device.” Carrier do not love. Also carriers are telcos, not tech companies. One exception : IoT. Distributed sensors that have 10 year lifespan need flexibility; and eSIM is a bigger push there. Citation : Run an MVNO that is wary of the future of eSIM.
  - mmcnl 9y ago
    Would be even more magic if I could switch provider by simply changing a setting in the settings menu (which is technically feasible using an eSIM).
GeekyBear 9y ago
The current nano-SIM standard is something that was created by Apple. https://www.cnet.com/news/sim-card-maker-apples-design-won-standards-effort/ https://www.cnet.com/news/sim-card-maker-apples-design-won-s... Since then, Apple has been pushing for carriers to support a new standard for an embedded chip in the device to hold the data currently stored on one or more removable SIM cards. >The Apple SIM supports wireless services across multiple supported carriers, which can be selected from a user interface within their operating systems, removing the need to install a SIM provided by the carrier itself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_SIM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_SIM
foolfoolz 9y ago
the sim is no piece of plastic. SIM cards are computers! they have a CPU. they have memory, a file system. they run applets, yes Java applets. sims are one of the most secure pieces of technology out there, part of the Secure Element standard. the sim is responsible for a lot of your phones security. lots of encryption keys live on the sim and nothing can access them at all. I am much much happier to trust the hardware than software for some of this. smaller form factors are always coming out for sim, but it's worth the space
- dannyw 9y ago
  On a dumb phone yes contacts are stored on your SIM maybe using some kind of weak crypto, yes. On an iPhone X, it’s completely unused for crypto or security, or for any other purpose other than carrier authentication.
  - foolfoolz 9y ago
    carrier authentication is huge! do you want someone to be able to subscribe to a network with your phone number? receive your calls? texts? or call or text as if they are you? yes the sim has little relevance to device security for most smartphones. contacts on sim are a great example of supporting legacy features for BC only. but the network is still very important to secure. sims are used for more than just phones. the chip on your credit card is a Secure Element. the chip in your passport is too. these are some of the most physically and technically secure pieces of hardware ever made
    - woah 9y ago
      Carrier authentication is not huge. The vast majority of communications services today are secure without a SIM, even ones that are tied to your number. Ever notice that iMessage keeps working without a SIM? The SIM card is mostly a relic that is useful to the carrier oligopoly because it increases network switching friction.
      - kevinchen 9y ago

parent5446 9y ago

https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/4/16424740/google-pixel-2-xl-esim-technology-project-fi-first-ever https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/4/16424740/google-pixel-2-x...

valuearb 9y ago
The Pixel is a great example of how Google is trying to cast off the constraints of Android's distribution model. I really think they can do it, but it's going to take a long effort. Eventually all the cheap phones will be Android and Google/Samsung/Apple will fight for the premium market. And it's unclear how long Samsung will remain in the fight given their lack of control over the OS and hardware integration.
- lovich 9y ago
  Will Samsung even want to stay in the fight if they can get themselves as the screen manufacturers for every phone? They make money on every iPhone already selling parts, not sure if they do so for Pixels. No sense digging for gold if you can sell the shovels though

mattnewton 9y ago

They have an electronic sim on the watch- I imagine that’s serving as a test bed for the carriers and for apple.

okanesen 9y ago

They did it with their most recent Apple Watch, which could be a first start to also bring it to the iPhone. They probably want to first get the adoption going, before making it available globally.

roywiggins 9y ago

Apple build something like this into the Apple Watch, I think. https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/12/the-cellular-enabled-apple-watch-has-the-sim-built-in/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/12/the-cellular-enabled-apple...

dzhiurgis 9y ago

But how does it work while travelling? Yes you can buy roaming packs, but local SIM cards are as low as 5$ for unlimited LTE.

Freestyler_3 9y ago
Wrong question. You should be wondering how walled off it is going to be. I mean it won't be that hard to make it so that you can easily load a different esim when traveling. It will have many slots, since it can just emulate more and more. But is that in everybody's interest?
acchow 9y ago
It would be great if you could attach service providers to your iPhone in iTunes or your Apple account page or something. You could set up service in another country before you even arrive and it will "just work" when you land.
- lucaspiller 9y ago
  Technically this is already supported via the GSM standard. For example here is a Lithuanian company that lets you roam while there on their network without changing your SIM or paying your providers roaming fees: https://widerfi.com/ https://widerfi.com/ The issue is that getting phone providers to co-operate is basically impossible. Not just politics, but everyone has their own way of doing things, so you need a custom implementation for each provider. (Source: I used to work at an company who ran an SMS gateway)
  - dzhiurgis 9y ago
    Interesting that data roaming packs has increased the overall pricing in many eastern european countries, Bite Lithuania included. They probably anticipate this future where virtual phones will be exported to west.

stock_toaster 9y ago

> don't need a piece of plastic that holds a numeric key Doesn't a SIM include a small micro-controller and firmware (ref#1)? It isn't just a numeric key holder. In addition, wouldn't having an apple designed electronic SIM reduce what 3rd party firmware (hardware SIM card) is running on their devices? Seems like a good deal to me. ref#1: https://www.slideshare.net/c.enrique.ortiz/sim-card-overview https://www.slideshare.net/c.enrique.ortiz/sim-card-overview

fermienrico 9y ago
It doesn’t matter. My argument still stands regardless of what’s inside the chip holder and the card. The point is - it’s a relatively simple thing compared to the complexity of the rest of the phone. It needs to be eradicated.
- michaelmrose 9y ago
  You have failed to establish this.

SadWebDeveloper 9y ago

Its funny that in the old days the main selling point of GSM/SIM-Cards were that you could physically change from phone to phone and kept your line (and contacts), now we the recent race to get things as little as possible and that virtually no one is using by default any of the extra-GSM functionalities has (contact backup), coming back to a non-physical identity as the solution (like in the CDMA days) that will force you to go to carrier every time you need to change yout phone and depend on 3rd party online services for the extra functionalities.

FreakyT 9y ago
Completely agree -- the magic of SIM cards is that they allow you to quickly switch providers. I find it ridiculous that people are clamoring for eSIMS, which as you point out is not moving forward, but moving backward to the old CDMA days when you had to plead with your carrier to reconfigure your phone.
- acchow 9y ago
  That is not what people want an eSIM to be like.
- rizwank 9y ago
  Proper eSIM and eUICC implementations should allow remote flashing - there is a bootstrap IMSI and allow overloading of additional. Apple SIM (sans ATT on iPad) is an early non standard implementation. But getting carriers to support the interchange is hard. Device manufacturers would love to remove the SIM card and make eSIM proprietary to lock their phones into a walled garden - “Pay to add your IMSI to this device.” Carrier do not love. Also carriers are telcos, not tech companies. One exception : IoT. Distributed sensors that have 10 year lifespan need flexibility; and eSIM is a bigger push there. Citation : Run an MVNO that is wary of the future of eSIM.
- mmcnl 9y ago
  Would be even more magic if I could switch provider by simply changing a setting in the settings menu (which is technically feasible using an eSIM).

GeekyBear 9y ago

The current nano-SIM standard is something that was created by Apple. https://www.cnet.com/news/sim-card-maker-apples-design-won-standards-effort/ https://www.cnet.com/news/sim-card-maker-apples-design-won-s... Since then, Apple has been pushing for carriers to support a new standard for an embedded chip in the device to hold the data currently stored on one or more removable SIM cards. >The Apple SIM supports wireless services across multiple supported carriers, which can be selected from a user interface within their operating systems, removing the need to install a SIM provided by the carrier itself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_SIM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_SIM

foolfoolz 9y ago

the sim is no piece of plastic. SIM cards are computers! they have a CPU. they have memory, a file system. they run applets, yes Java applets. sims are one of the most secure pieces of technology out there, part of the Secure Element standard. the sim is responsible for a lot of your phones security. lots of encryption keys live on the sim and nothing can access them at all. I am much much happier to trust the hardware than software for some of this. smaller form factors are always coming out for sim, but it's worth the space

dannyw 9y ago
On a dumb phone yes contacts are stored on your SIM maybe using some kind of weak crypto, yes. On an iPhone X, it’s completely unused for crypto or security, or for any other purpose other than carrier authentication.
- foolfoolz 9y ago
  carrier authentication is huge! do you want someone to be able to subscribe to a network with your phone number? receive your calls? texts? or call or text as if they are you? yes the sim has little relevance to device security for most smartphones. contacts on sim are a great example of supporting legacy features for BC only. but the network is still very important to secure. sims are used for more than just phones. the chip on your credit card is a Secure Element. the chip in your passport is too. these are some of the most physically and technically secure pieces of hardware ever made
  - woah 9y ago
    Carrier authentication is not huge. The vast majority of communications services today are secure without a SIM, even ones that are tied to your number. Ever notice that iMessage keeps working without a SIM? The SIM card is mostly a relic that is useful to the carrier oligopoly because it increases network switching friction.
    - kevinchen 9y ago