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"Axiom in the tech world is that "Apple is a software company that builds hardware". " Is that really a common belief? I know many people who think the opposit

"Axiom in the tech world is that "Apple is a software company that builds hardware". " Is that really a common belief? I know many people who think the opposite - apple is a hardware company. In fact Tim Cook went out of his way several times to remind people that apple isn't a hardware company.

gurkendoktor 9y ago
In terms of profits, yes. But many of us don't buy Apple for the hardware, but because we want to stay in their software ecosystem. I'd rather use a Nexus running iOS than an iPhone X running Android, and I'm even more invested in macOS. That Apple builds nice hardware is a bonus for me (but I'd honestly prefer better software right now). I mean, on paper Apple is making more money from hardware than from software, but how do you measure hardware sales that only happened because of the software?
- mamuf 9y ago
  Apple is making buttload of money on hardware because it does not sell any software anymore. I mean, in the mass consumer market – and they are cutting off the Pro software (which is sad). But remember the hardware sales pay for the software, too. So basically people say Apple is making $$$ on an iPhone price minus manufacturing costs and R&D but great slice of the zillion $$$ is the software part. Anyway, not sure who said what exaclty, but Steve Jobs repeatedly said that Apple is great because of the tight interconnection between sw and hw. So Apple is not a hw company. It is not a sw company either. They do both and the result is greater than just a combination of the two. I see Apple, and the way they present their products supports it, as an appliance company. It's harder and harder to repair their devices and the software is more and more integrated with the hardware – examples: force touch and feedback, Touch/Face ID, all the camera magic, Apple Pay, MBP Touch Bar etc. So basically the sw and hw are more and more inseparable unless you lose "half" the features.
- selectodude 9y ago
  Apple has been very serious about how they’re a hardware company vs a software company for like 30+ years now. Literally the first thing SPJ did after coming back was kill the Mac clones program. They’re obsessed with the feel of the hardware in every way. The software is just a platform.
  - DRW_ 9y ago
    Actually, Steve Jobs emphasised a few times that the reason why Apple was successful is because of the software. https://youtu.be/dEeyaAUCyZs https://youtu.be/dEeyaAUCyZs
    - godzillabrennus 9y ago
      Judging from how bad the software is getting I’d wager they forgot this.
      - DRW_ 9y ago
        Yeah, I'd agree unfortunately.
      - jrs95 9y ago
        At least it's not Windows. I'm amazed at how something as basic as Bluetooth has been completely fucked for me since I got a PC. On no other platform have my Bose QC35s, AirPods, or wireless Logitech headset had issues. On Windows 10, they hardly work at all. Ironically the only device that works for longer than a few seconds before losing audio is my AirPods, which I still have to reconnect frequently to get the audio o actually come through.
        guelo 9y ago
        FWIW, I just got rid of my wireless keyboard and mouse because I was tired of weird random connecting issues with my Macbook.
        timrichard 9y ago
        At least it's not Android, either. I don't use Windows, but for me the Android OTA upgrade to Oreo on my Nexus 6P has been disastrous for use with the QC35s. I have to reboot the awful thing several times a day to get consistent BT audio, and it will happily chew through the battery several times a day too, unless I leave it on charge for periods. Been with Android since the G1, but I'm seriously thinking about switching to iOS because I'm just so frustrated on a daily basis with this awful release, which seems barely tested. I do wonder at which point I switched from the optimist's "oh yay, an update!" to the pessimist's "oh shit, here comes a boatload of careless regressions".
- panopticon 9y ago
  I'm the inverse of you I guess. I'm not a huge fan of macOS or iOS (iOS's notification story is an absolute nightmare), but their hardware is always among the best, if not the best. Apple might not appear to be the best if you're just comparing line items on a spec sheet, but the whole package always seems more solid than their competition. I'll never buy a non-Apple laptop anymore after dealing with flaky PC laptops for years, and the only reason I haven't bailed on Android is because of how bought into the ecosystem I am... but I'd buy an iPhone in a heartbeat if I could reliably run Android on it.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- earenndil 9y ago
  > But many of us don't buy Apple for the hardware, but because we want to stay in their software ecosystem. I'd rather use a Nexus running iOS than an iPhone X running Android Afraid I'm completely different. I have an iphone but my computer runs linux. The reason I have an iphone is because the hardware is top-notch, and the OS is rather constricting -- I would much rather have an iphone running android than one running ios.
  - PoisonousGases 9y ago
    I'm similar, I would love to buy Apple hardware and have the freedom to put my own software on it. I'd also be happy to buy a new laptop and install 10.6.8, or buy a new iPhone and install iOS 6. But I despise Android--I want a real Unix. I feel like Android was architected by complete idiots. Oh how I wish WebOS won instead of Android.
    - skinnymuch 9y ago
      I'll have random daydreams of some sort of way webOS would be a distant third place, but in a decent spot with say 10% market share. I'll think of some weird merger of BB switching to webOS, Microsoft and Nokia backing webOS. Shit. WebOS was likely doomed no matter what. But it came out at the right time and was so good. I'd prob still use it on and off if HP didn't take the store down. I'll always miss webOS.
DigitalJack 9y ago
"Is that really a common belief?" It was in the pre-iphone era.
hyperbovine 9y ago
The axiom is that people will sit around debating which is the correct axiom on tech boards ad infinitum.
- yndoendo 9y ago
  Apple is tuple(Hardware,Software) = product. So simply a product company.
  - lostlogin 9y ago
    In Swift product: (String, String) = (Hardware, Software)
    - leadingthenet 9y ago
      Even their programming language looks great.
austenallred 9y ago
I see it as the reverse. Apple is definitely a hardware company that makes a solid OS and generally makes mediocre software outside of that
- valuearb 9y ago
  Yea, but that OS is everything. They barely make any software outside of it. And it's the best mobile OS by far.
  - computerex 9y ago
    > And it's the best mobile OS by far. And yet Android dominates the market share. I don't think iOS is the best mobile OS, let alone the best by far.
    - shorsher 9y ago
      I don't think Android market share is enough of a metric to determine the quality of iOS. There are so many different cheap android phones to choose from, and people do not buy them because Android is a better mobile OS.
    - lovich 9y ago
      I'm typing this from an Android right now, but it definitely feels like iOS is the majority of the high end market and Android completely owns mid to low end. Apples chosen their niche and fills it well, they shouldn't be compared to a generalist in terms of who is best
      - KGIII 9y ago
        It's a very subjective thing, really. I actually like my Windows phone, it's the only Windows I have. Someone above concluded they are a product company and I was thinking 'appliance.' That's not a negative, they make devices fit for function and they, Apple, are remarkably good at it. I can't think of an Apple product, and I type this on an iPad, that is truly the best in every aspect. However, they surely aren't the worst and the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, I think.
vpribish 9y ago
I've ONLY heard that "Apple is a hardware company". that's their defining difference from Microsoft, and now Google
incompatible 9y ago
Does Apple actually manufacture anything itself? I thought it was all outsourced. That would make them a software and hardware-design company, but not really a manufacturer.
- toasterlovin 9y ago
  Not doing the final assembly yourself does not somehow disqualify you from being a hardware company. There is no company in the world that possesses the manufacturing prowesss of Apple, yet they all have access to the same final assembly shop (Foxconn, basically).
  - incompatible 9y ago
    The component manufacture is outsourced too isn't it? It seems they have been setting up or buying some chip fabrication facilities, but does any current Apple product contain anything built in an Apple factory?
    - toasterlovin 9y ago
      I don’t get it. Apple makes the best mobile processors in the world. They routinely introduce low volume manufacturing techniques to the iPhone, which they then scale to 100+ million units per year. How are they somehow not a hardware company?
      - incompatible 9y ago
        They design processors, but they are manufactured in volume by Samsung or other outsourcing companies.
        pertymcpert 9y ago
        You have to design the hardware with the manufacturing process in mind. It's not like a re-compile.
        9y ago

gurkendoktor 9y ago

In terms of profits, yes. But many of us don't buy Apple for the hardware, but because we want to stay in their software ecosystem. I'd rather use a Nexus running iOS than an iPhone X running Android, and I'm even more invested in macOS. That Apple builds nice hardware is a bonus for me (but I'd honestly prefer better software right now). I mean, on paper Apple is making more money from hardware than from software, but how do you measure hardware sales that only happened because of the software?

mamuf 9y ago
Apple is making buttload of money on hardware because it does not sell any software anymore. I mean, in the mass consumer market – and they are cutting off the Pro software (which is sad). But remember the hardware sales pay for the software, too. So basically people say Apple is making $$$ on an iPhone price minus manufacturing costs and R&D but great slice of the zillion $$$ is the software part. Anyway, not sure who said what exaclty, but Steve Jobs repeatedly said that Apple is great because of the tight interconnection between sw and hw. So Apple is not a hw company. It is not a sw company either. They do both and the result is greater than just a combination of the two. I see Apple, and the way they present their products supports it, as an appliance company. It's harder and harder to repair their devices and the software is more and more integrated with the hardware – examples: force touch and feedback, Touch/Face ID, all the camera magic, Apple Pay, MBP Touch Bar etc. So basically the sw and hw are more and more inseparable unless you lose "half" the features.
selectodude 9y ago
Apple has been very serious about how they’re a hardware company vs a software company for like 30+ years now. Literally the first thing SPJ did after coming back was kill the Mac clones program. They’re obsessed with the feel of the hardware in every way. The software is just a platform.
- DRW_ 9y ago
  Actually, Steve Jobs emphasised a few times that the reason why Apple was successful is because of the software. https://youtu.be/dEeyaAUCyZs https://youtu.be/dEeyaAUCyZs
  - godzillabrennus 9y ago
    Judging from how bad the software is getting I’d wager they forgot this.
    - DRW_ 9y ago
      Yeah, I'd agree unfortunately.
    - jrs95 9y ago
      At least it's not Windows. I'm amazed at how something as basic as Bluetooth has been completely fucked for me since I got a PC. On no other platform have my Bose QC35s, AirPods, or wireless Logitech headset had issues. On Windows 10, they hardly work at all. Ironically the only device that works for longer than a few seconds before losing audio is my AirPods, which I still have to reconnect frequently to get the audio o actually come through.
      - guelo 9y ago
        FWIW, I just got rid of my wireless keyboard and mouse because I was tired of weird random connecting issues with my Macbook.
      - timrichard 9y ago
        At least it's not Android, either. I don't use Windows, but for me the Android OTA upgrade to Oreo on my Nexus 6P has been disastrous for use with the QC35s. I have to reboot the awful thing several times a day to get consistent BT audio, and it will happily chew through the battery several times a day too, unless I leave it on charge for periods. Been with Android since the G1, but I'm seriously thinking about switching to iOS because I'm just so frustrated on a daily basis with this awful release, which seems barely tested. I do wonder at which point I switched from the optimist's "oh yay, an update!" to the pessimist's "oh shit, here comes a boatload of careless regressions".
panopticon 9y ago
I'm the inverse of you I guess. I'm not a huge fan of macOS or iOS (iOS's notification story is an absolute nightmare), but their hardware is always among the best, if not the best. Apple might not appear to be the best if you're just comparing line items on a spec sheet, but the whole package always seems more solid than their competition. I'll never buy a non-Apple laptop anymore after dealing with flaky PC laptops for years, and the only reason I haven't bailed on Android is because of how bought into the ecosystem I am... but I'd buy an iPhone in a heartbeat if I could reliably run Android on it.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
earenndil 9y ago
> But many of us don't buy Apple for the hardware, but because we want to stay in their software ecosystem. I'd rather use a Nexus running iOS than an iPhone X running Android Afraid I'm completely different. I have an iphone but my computer runs linux. The reason I have an iphone is because the hardware is top-notch, and the OS is rather constricting -- I would much rather have an iphone running android than one running ios.
- PoisonousGases 9y ago
  I'm similar, I would love to buy Apple hardware and have the freedom to put my own software on it. I'd also be happy to buy a new laptop and install 10.6.8, or buy a new iPhone and install iOS 6. But I despise Android--I want a real Unix. I feel like Android was architected by complete idiots. Oh how I wish WebOS won instead of Android.
  - skinnymuch 9y ago
    I'll have random daydreams of some sort of way webOS would be a distant third place, but in a decent spot with say 10% market share. I'll think of some weird merger of BB switching to webOS, Microsoft and Nokia backing webOS. Shit. WebOS was likely doomed no matter what. But it came out at the right time and was so good. I'd prob still use it on and off if HP didn't take the store down. I'll always miss webOS.

DigitalJack 9y ago

"Is that really a common belief?" It was in the pre-iphone era.

hyperbovine 9y ago

The axiom is that people will sit around debating which is the correct axiom on tech boards ad infinitum.

yndoendo 9y ago
Apple is tuple(Hardware,Software) = product. So simply a product company.
- lostlogin 9y ago
  In Swift product: (String, String) = (Hardware, Software)
  - leadingthenet 9y ago
    Even their programming language looks great.

austenallred 9y ago

I see it as the reverse. Apple is definitely a hardware company that makes a solid OS and generally makes mediocre software outside of that

valuearb 9y ago
Yea, but that OS is everything. They barely make any software outside of it. And it's the best mobile OS by far.
- computerex 9y ago
  > And it's the best mobile OS by far. And yet Android dominates the market share. I don't think iOS is the best mobile OS, let alone the best by far.
  - shorsher 9y ago
    I don't think Android market share is enough of a metric to determine the quality of iOS. There are so many different cheap android phones to choose from, and people do not buy them because Android is a better mobile OS.
  - lovich 9y ago
    I'm typing this from an Android right now, but it definitely feels like iOS is the majority of the high end market and Android completely owns mid to low end. Apples chosen their niche and fills it well, they shouldn't be compared to a generalist in terms of who is best
    - KGIII 9y ago
      It's a very subjective thing, really. I actually like my Windows phone, it's the only Windows I have. Someone above concluded they are a product company and I was thinking 'appliance.' That's not a negative, they make devices fit for function and they, Apple, are remarkably good at it. I can't think of an Apple product, and I type this on an iPad, that is truly the best in every aspect. However, they surely aren't the worst and the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, I think.

vpribish 9y ago

I've ONLY heard that "Apple is a hardware company". that's their defining difference from Microsoft, and now Google

incompatible 9y ago

Does Apple actually manufacture anything itself? I thought it was all outsourced. That would make them a software and hardware-design company, but not really a manufacturer.

toasterlovin 9y ago
Not doing the final assembly yourself does not somehow disqualify you from being a hardware company. There is no company in the world that possesses the manufacturing prowesss of Apple, yet they all have access to the same final assembly shop (Foxconn, basically).
- incompatible 9y ago
  The component manufacture is outsourced too isn't it? It seems they have been setting up or buying some chip fabrication facilities, but does any current Apple product contain anything built in an Apple factory?
  - toasterlovin 9y ago
    I don’t get it. Apple makes the best mobile processors in the world. They routinely introduce low volume manufacturing techniques to the iPhone, which they then scale to 100+ million units per year. How are they somehow not a hardware company?
    - incompatible 9y ago
      They design processors, but they are manufactured in volume by Samsung or other outsourcing companies.
      - pertymcpert 9y ago
        You have to design the hardware with the manufacturing process in mind. It's not like a re-compile.
      - 9y ago