6 ms·

Ok, thought experiment, what is the death-toll of Capitalism in the last century?

by s_kilk 9y ago

golergka 9y ago
I'd say it's in negative billions from all the innovation and economic growth.
- brbrodude 9y ago
  If so, then we shall deduct from USSR & China a calculated ammount that came from decades and decades of economic growth they had then, no? It's funny how when praising the status quo some people don't see how they get to ideological mumbling REALLY VERY FAST, yet are the same ones who want to accuse others of 'ideology'(as in "I don't have that, my point of view is objective"). I don't judge tho, getting to understand these matters take a lot of time, 'boring knowledge' like history, investigation and reflecting, I think people should spend more time honestly looking into and trying to understand what this is all about, I bet if you did you'd surprise yourself many times over and see how deep this stuff goes. Facebook-facts based stuff just doesn't do it.
abtinf 9y ago
Zero. Capitalism is the system of protecting the rights of the individual to engage in the free exchange of goods and services. The extent of human flourishing is the extent to which human societies adopt capitalism. Even when it is adopted in small degrees, the result is a dramatic uplifting of billions of people out of poverty. Capitalism is good and we would all be better off if we had more of it. All of the mass death and destruction of the world is caused by collectivism, from the killing fields of Cambodia to the mixed economy of the United States. Collectivism is the ideology that’s holds that your moral sanction for living comes from the group; only the leaders of that group, whether through a connection to god or the tribe, have access to the true nature of the world, and so are justified in any brutality they see fit.
- mjburgess 9y ago
  I can't work out if you're trollling or not. You realise, that "100 million" figure is just taken from the deaths that occurred under Communist regimes, not as a deliberate consequence of their actions. Also, you're equivocating on Capitalism and Communism with the idea in the former case, and one particular implementation in the latter. By "Communism" you mean "regimes that called themselves communist". If, more honestly by capitalism you meant, "regimes that called themselves capitalist" then we would start including Vietnam, Iraq, etc. etc. etc. And you're equivocating on "collectivism" by which you mean the both, say, Mao's agricultural policies and there being groups that have leaders. Businesses are collectives. Capitalism, as trade between businesses, is a mostly collectivised system. Humans goals are foundationally composed of all those which follow from their identity: as they conceive themselves as being part of a group, and as they conceive of their identity free of any membership. This gives rise to nations, businesses, universities, football teams, etc. AND to personal projects, individual enterprise, and so on. The difference between communism-in-practice and capitalism-in-practice has nothing to do with the existence of groups, but rather the political power structures which surround those groups: all communist regimes were dictatorships. The difference between capitalism-in-theory and communism-in-theory has, again, nothing to do with the existence of groups -- but what (economic) rights you take to be fundamental.
- ivanbakel 9y ago
  >All of the mass death and destruction of the world is caused by collectivism,... the mixed economy of the United States. The mixed economy is currently the main system preventing mass starvation due to poverty in the US. Capitalism, from the start of the Dustbowl and the Great Depression until the intervention of the government with the New Deal, failed to prevent death and displacement for hundreds of thousands of people despite a severe overproduction of basically every kind of foodstuff, because it simply didn't make anyone any money to do so. The free exchange of goods produced under holdover ownership from mercantile and colonial times, including the ability to withhold that exchange of necessities, is a moral evil. It is inadmissible to let people starve because it is not profitable to give them food, but that is what capitalist thought mandates.
- executesorder66 9y ago
amag 9y ago
This surely is comparing apples and oranges. When communist death tolls are discussed the meaning are those who are killed when communism is implemented or re-enforced (e.g. The Great Leap). When capitalism is implemented there is no need to shoot communists. Death tolls from capitalism are due to other factors which may also exist in one form or another in a communist regime (e.g. war).

Ok, thought experiment, what is the death-toll of Capitalism in the last century?

by s_kilk 9y ago

Ok, thought experiment, what is the death-toll of Capitalism in the last century?

golergka 9y ago

I'd say it's in negative billions from all the innovation and economic growth.

brbrodude 9y ago
If so, then we shall deduct from USSR & China a calculated ammount that came from decades and decades of economic growth they had then, no? It's funny how when praising the status quo some people don't see how they get to ideological mumbling REALLY VERY FAST, yet are the same ones who want to accuse others of 'ideology'(as in "I don't have that, my point of view is objective"). I don't judge tho, getting to understand these matters take a lot of time, 'boring knowledge' like history, investigation and reflecting, I think people should spend more time honestly looking into and trying to understand what this is all about, I bet if you did you'd surprise yourself many times over and see how deep this stuff goes. Facebook-facts based stuff just doesn't do it.

abtinf 9y ago

Zero. Capitalism is the system of protecting the rights of the individual to engage in the free exchange of goods and services. The extent of human flourishing is the extent to which human societies adopt capitalism. Even when it is adopted in small degrees, the result is a dramatic uplifting of billions of people out of poverty. Capitalism is good and we would all be better off if we had more of it. All of the mass death and destruction of the world is caused by collectivism, from the killing fields of Cambodia to the mixed economy of the United States. Collectivism is the ideology that’s holds that your moral sanction for living comes from the group; only the leaders of that group, whether through a connection to god or the tribe, have access to the true nature of the world, and so are justified in any brutality they see fit.

mjburgess 9y ago
I can't work out if you're trollling or not. You realise, that "100 million" figure is just taken from the deaths that occurred under Communist regimes, not as a deliberate consequence of their actions. Also, you're equivocating on Capitalism and Communism with the idea in the former case, and one particular implementation in the latter. By "Communism" you mean "regimes that called themselves communist". If, more honestly by capitalism you meant, "regimes that called themselves capitalist" then we would start including Vietnam, Iraq, etc. etc. etc. And you're equivocating on "collectivism" by which you mean the both, say, Mao's agricultural policies and there being groups that have leaders. Businesses are collectives. Capitalism, as trade between businesses, is a mostly collectivised system. Humans goals are foundationally composed of all those which follow from their identity: as they conceive themselves as being part of a group, and as they conceive of their identity free of any membership. This gives rise to nations, businesses, universities, football teams, etc. AND to personal projects, individual enterprise, and so on. The difference between communism-in-practice and capitalism-in-practice has nothing to do with the existence of groups, but rather the political power structures which surround those groups: all communist regimes were dictatorships. The difference between capitalism-in-theory and communism-in-theory has, again, nothing to do with the existence of groups -- but what (economic) rights you take to be fundamental.
ivanbakel 9y ago
>All of the mass death and destruction of the world is caused by collectivism,... the mixed economy of the United States. The mixed economy is currently the main system preventing mass starvation due to poverty in the US. Capitalism, from the start of the Dustbowl and the Great Depression until the intervention of the government with the New Deal, failed to prevent death and displacement for hundreds of thousands of people despite a severe overproduction of basically every kind of foodstuff, because it simply didn't make anyone any money to do so. The free exchange of goods produced under holdover ownership from mercantile and colonial times, including the ability to withhold that exchange of necessities, is a moral evil. It is inadmissible to let people starve because it is not profitable to give them food, but that is what capitalist thought mandates.
executesorder66 9y ago

amag 9y ago

This surely is comparing apples and oranges. When communist death tolls are discussed the meaning are those who are killed when communism is implemented or re-enforced (e.g. The Great Leap). When capitalism is implemented there is no need to shoot communists. Death tolls from capitalism are due to other factors which may also exist in one form or another in a communist regime (e.g. war).