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Routine is simultaneously marvelous at producing results and a prison of one's own making. I'm into archery and at a certain point I was shooting everyday. My

Routine is simultaneously marvelous at producing results and a prison of one's own making. I'm into archery and at a certain point I was shooting everyday. My groups got tighter. Then, at a certain point a good shot lost it's wonder and became expected. I didn't feel anything except disappointment when I made a less than perfect shot. I then stopped and better understood why those that are better are better. There are no heroes, no calls to adventure or treacherous journeys - just a dull ceaseless repetition. Like a hammer driving a nail.

worldburger 9y ago
Newsflash: you didn’t enjoy the process of archery?
erasmuse 9y ago
No no. The routine is a space for unstructured improvement. Nor is there such a thing as repetition in learning. Every attempt at gaining skill is at least slightly different and is made under at least slightly different conditions. Progress being the slow accumulation of mastery over many details. If it feels dull then either a plateau has been reached or the ambition itself is an unworthy one and should be abandoned in favour of something else.
- i2shar 9y ago
  Beautifully put!
- jonathanstrange 9y ago
  I don't believe this is true, or at least it depends on the kind of thing you're learning. For example, when you want to become an outstanding guitar player, you'll need to go through many, many hours of dull and definitely boring training in order to perfect your playing technique. Without that training, you can become a good or a creative guitar player, but not a genuine master. I presume that it's similar with many other instruments and related skills like archery, gymnastics, dancing, or skateboarding.
  - kitotik 9y ago
    Counterpoint: I can’t imagine a guitar player, dancer, skater, basketball player, mechanic, or whatever, actually achieving greatness without having spent a significant amount of time ‘just playing around’. I’ve heard plenty of guitarists and classical músicians who were extremely technically proficient with their instrument, but only other musicians would appreciate them. If Joseph Campbell had not pursued this relatively ‘unstructured’ way of honing his craft, and stayed within the regimen of traditional academia, I highly doubt this thread would exist because Joseph would have only been known within the small academic circles. He transcended. When you have put in the monotonous work of practice, playtime only gets more exciting.
  - CuriouslyC 9y ago
    Active engagement in what you are doing is a sign of arousal and dopamine release, which are critical in learning. If you're "going through the motions" or you're bored you are going to learn very slowly, if at all. If you want to master the guitar, instead of boring repetition, you need to find ways to train your technique that engage you and are rewarding. People quote the 10,000 hours figure, as if you just needed to put in the time, but in reality those are 10,000 engaged, focused hours where you push yourself. It doesn't matter how many disengaged hours you put in, you'll plateau at "decent" and never become truly excellent.
    - jonathanstrange 9y ago
      Maybe that's your opinion and the perceived opinion right now, but your claims directly contradict what many successful teachers state. (But see below, maybe we don't disagree.) In Germany, for instance, there used to be these little "ETP books" for guitar players called Tägliche Übungen zur Entwicklung einer Technischen Perfektion that involved lengthy and absolutely monotonous finger exercises that really had nothing to do with music. Everybody praised them and everybody said that these and similar exercises are essential to become a world-class player. There is hardly any way around it, they said, you cannot become that good by merely playing music. I still have no reason to believe they were wrong. It would be surprising if arguably harder instruments like classical piano didn't involve similar monotonous exercises and the same couldn't be said about ballet, world-class athletes, etc. A friend of mine is a professional jazz saxophonist and while he was studying saxophone he had to practice scales up and down for hours and hours every day. You've got to put some serious effort into it, you agree with that, right? So maybe we agree in the end, because you use vague word "engage". Of course, nobody denies that you need to find a way to motivate you to get through these exercises or to stay "engaged". I didn't deny that. All I'm saying is that a lot of "mere repetition" is needed in many disciplines in order to reach a really high level while staying motivated.
Toine 9y ago
« You’ll win a championship in Boston. You’ll win another in Miami. The personalities on those two teams will be different, but both teams will have the same thing in common: habits. Boring old habits. I know you want me to let you in on some big secret to success in the NBA. The secret is there is no secret. It’s just boring old habits. In every locker room you’ll ever be in, everybody will say all the right things. Everybody says they’re willing to sacrifice whatever it takes to win a title. But this game isn’t a movie. It’s not about being the man in the fourth quarter. It’s not about talk. It’s getting in your work every single day, when nobody is watching. Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade. The men who you are going to win championships with are all going to be very different people. What makes them champions is the boring old habits that nobody sees. They compete to see who can be the first to get to the gym and the last to leave. Your peers who think this is a cliché, or who think this doesn’t apply to them because they have God-given talent, will play their whole careers without winning an NBA title. » Ray Allen https://www.theplayerstribune.com/ray-allen-letter-to-my-younger-self/ https://www.theplayerstribune.com/ray-allen-letter-to-my-you...
jonathanstrange 9y ago
I once met a PhD student in mathematics who was working on the mathematics of string theory. We went out for a beer in one of the standard, alternative places for going out in the 90s in Berlin. He was unusually happy about it and told me why. For the past four years he was never going out, got up at seven o'clock in the morning, drank only moderate amounts of tea (never coffee), and studied and worked on problems until the evening. He had only a short lunch break, he told me, and avoided anything that would make him loose focus. He lived together with a flat mate who did essentially the same thing. Needless to say he was insanely smart, maybe the smartest person I've ever met. Anyway, he was overdoing the daily routine, he confessed to me, and missing out on too many other things. I wonder whether he stayed in mathematics, but don't remember the name. Moral of the story (I suppose): If you want to achieve great things early in your life, routine and a distraction free environment is important. But keep it in a sane equilibrium with social life and find people to occasionally talk about other topics than your work.
lbotos 9y ago
If you haven't read Myth of Sisyphus, put that high on your list. There is a line, that's not really a spoiler but sets the tone that once you read I think you'd resonate with: "One must imagine Sisyphus happy."
corpMaverick 9y ago
There is a case that can be made in which we should spend more time learning new skills, improving on those new skills, than mastering the same skills over and over. Edit: Spend more time in zones 1 and 2. https://deanyeong.com/how-we-learn-new-things/ https://deanyeong.com/how-we-learn-new-things/

worldburger 9y ago

Newsflash: you didn’t enjoy the process of archery?

erasmuse 9y ago

No no. The routine is a space for unstructured improvement. Nor is there such a thing as repetition in learning. Every attempt at gaining skill is at least slightly different and is made under at least slightly different conditions. Progress being the slow accumulation of mastery over many details. If it feels dull then either a plateau has been reached or the ambition itself is an unworthy one and should be abandoned in favour of something else.

i2shar 9y ago
Beautifully put!
jonathanstrange 9y ago
I don't believe this is true, or at least it depends on the kind of thing you're learning. For example, when you want to become an outstanding guitar player, you'll need to go through many, many hours of dull and definitely boring training in order to perfect your playing technique. Without that training, you can become a good or a creative guitar player, but not a genuine master. I presume that it's similar with many other instruments and related skills like archery, gymnastics, dancing, or skateboarding.
- kitotik 9y ago
  Counterpoint: I can’t imagine a guitar player, dancer, skater, basketball player, mechanic, or whatever, actually achieving greatness without having spent a significant amount of time ‘just playing around’. I’ve heard plenty of guitarists and classical músicians who were extremely technically proficient with their instrument, but only other musicians would appreciate them. If Joseph Campbell had not pursued this relatively ‘unstructured’ way of honing his craft, and stayed within the regimen of traditional academia, I highly doubt this thread would exist because Joseph would have only been known within the small academic circles. He transcended. When you have put in the monotonous work of practice, playtime only gets more exciting.
- CuriouslyC 9y ago
  Active engagement in what you are doing is a sign of arousal and dopamine release, which are critical in learning. If you're "going through the motions" or you're bored you are going to learn very slowly, if at all. If you want to master the guitar, instead of boring repetition, you need to find ways to train your technique that engage you and are rewarding. People quote the 10,000 hours figure, as if you just needed to put in the time, but in reality those are 10,000 engaged, focused hours where you push yourself. It doesn't matter how many disengaged hours you put in, you'll plateau at "decent" and never become truly excellent.
  - jonathanstrange 9y ago
    Maybe that's your opinion and the perceived opinion right now, but your claims directly contradict what many successful teachers state. (But see below, maybe we don't disagree.) In Germany, for instance, there used to be these little "ETP books" for guitar players called Tägliche Übungen zur Entwicklung einer Technischen Perfektion that involved lengthy and absolutely monotonous finger exercises that really had nothing to do with music. Everybody praised them and everybody said that these and similar exercises are essential to become a world-class player. There is hardly any way around it, they said, you cannot become that good by merely playing music. I still have no reason to believe they were wrong. It would be surprising if arguably harder instruments like classical piano didn't involve similar monotonous exercises and the same couldn't be said about ballet, world-class athletes, etc. A friend of mine is a professional jazz saxophonist and while he was studying saxophone he had to practice scales up and down for hours and hours every day. You've got to put some serious effort into it, you agree with that, right? So maybe we agree in the end, because you use vague word "engage". Of course, nobody denies that you need to find a way to motivate you to get through these exercises or to stay "engaged". I didn't deny that. All I'm saying is that a lot of "mere repetition" is needed in many disciplines in order to reach a really high level while staying motivated.

Toine 9y ago

« You’ll win a championship in Boston. You’ll win another in Miami. The personalities on those two teams will be different, but both teams will have the same thing in common: habits. Boring old habits. I know you want me to let you in on some big secret to success in the NBA. The secret is there is no secret. It’s just boring old habits. In every locker room you’ll ever be in, everybody will say all the right things. Everybody says they’re willing to sacrifice whatever it takes to win a title. But this game isn’t a movie. It’s not about being the man in the fourth quarter. It’s not about talk. It’s getting in your work every single day, when nobody is watching. Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade. The men who you are going to win championships with are all going to be very different people. What makes them champions is the boring old habits that nobody sees. They compete to see who can be the first to get to the gym and the last to leave. Your peers who think this is a cliché, or who think this doesn’t apply to them because they have God-given talent, will play their whole careers without winning an NBA title. » Ray Allen https://www.theplayerstribune.com/ray-allen-letter-to-my-younger-self/ https://www.theplayerstribune.com/ray-allen-letter-to-my-you...

jonathanstrange 9y ago

I once met a PhD student in mathematics who was working on the mathematics of string theory. We went out for a beer in one of the standard, alternative places for going out in the 90s in Berlin. He was unusually happy about it and told me why. For the past four years he was never going out, got up at seven o'clock in the morning, drank only moderate amounts of tea (never coffee), and studied and worked on problems until the evening. He had only a short lunch break, he told me, and avoided anything that would make him loose focus. He lived together with a flat mate who did essentially the same thing. Needless to say he was insanely smart, maybe the smartest person I've ever met. Anyway, he was overdoing the daily routine, he confessed to me, and missing out on too many other things. I wonder whether he stayed in mathematics, but don't remember the name. Moral of the story (I suppose): If you want to achieve great things early in your life, routine and a distraction free environment is important. But keep it in a sane equilibrium with social life and find people to occasionally talk about other topics than your work.

lbotos 9y ago

If you haven't read Myth of Sisyphus, put that high on your list. There is a line, that's not really a spoiler but sets the tone that once you read I think you'd resonate with: "One must imagine Sisyphus happy."

corpMaverick 9y ago

There is a case that can be made in which we should spend more time learning new skills, improving on those new skills, than mastering the same skills over and over. Edit: Spend more time in zones 1 and 2. https://deanyeong.com/how-we-learn-new-things/ https://deanyeong.com/how-we-learn-new-things/