5 ms·

Corporations, yes. But employees of those corporations, less so. As a developer making <insert ethically dubious thing here>, you could have qualms about it.

by untog 9y ago

cyberferret 9y ago
As an owner of a software development business, I've ejected my fair share of clients who have asked me to do ethically questionable things. But I wonder if a line employee who has to make rent every week and put food on the table can make the call. I don't know - I've always made the call myself, and informed my employees so I've never had an employee come to me with concerns about working with a particular client or on a particular project?
- pdkl95 9y ago
  > I've ejected my fair share of clients Thank you! > a line employee who has to make rent every week Some sort of software development guild or professional association could help. Like a PE's duty to disobey their boss when a project isn't safe, explicitly defined external obligations can give the employee some power (and organizational support).
  - meej 9y ago
    Professional associations do have codes of ethics and ethics-focused committees and societies, but they don't seem to do a very good job of publicizing them, because I see comments like yours here with some regularity. Heck, I have been a member of IEEE since 1997 and yet I only learned of their Society on the Social Implications of Technology a few years ago. The Order of the Engineer, which is entirely focused on professional ethics, seems to be equally unknown.
et-al 9y ago
Except when things are convenient and we're benefitting from it, it's easy to explain away the negative consequences that befall others. Think of all the engineering effort to create dark patterns or make it easier for people to buy stuff. I won't work on ads, but a lot of other engineers are okay with it, especially if the money is good.
ben_jones 9y ago
All it takes for a 22 year old to write invasive ad tracking software for FB/Google is ~150k combined compensation. Also a software developer wrote this [1] at some point... Why do software developers have a presumed sense of moral superiority? Because some guy named Linus distributed an operating system for free? We're for hire just like everybody else. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootk...
pdkl95 9y ago
Unfortunately, many engineers like to pretend their work is apolitical, but there is "No Neutral Ground in a Burning World"[1]. Everything is political, eventually; technology patently has political consequences that are large in scope, highly complex, and difficult to understand fully. When you are implementing a new technology, please take some time to actively consider all of the potential consequences you can think of. Maybe your new tech just needs simple safety-considerations similar to power tools (dangerous, if misused). Maybe your new tech will disrupt existing structures that many people rely on; do you have a plan to handle that? Can someone easily use your new tech to undermine civil rights or basic freedoms? Obviously we can't foresee everything, but we can at least try to consider the potential consequences to the world, society, and people outside of tech. I know it's hard to walk away from a cool idea. It's even harder to do the right thing when it risks your salary - or your safety. For better or worse, this kind of question needs to be part of the new-tech development process. As Dan Geer said[4][5] in a recent keynote, "You have not picked a career. You have picked a crusade." [1] I strongly encourage everyone to watch this 30c3 talk[2] by Quinn Norton and Eleanor Saitta (or read the transcript[3]). [2] https://media.ccc.de/v/30C3_-_5491_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201312272300_-_no_neutral_ground_in_a_burning_world_-_quinn_norton_-_eleanor_saitta https://media.ccc.de/v/30C3_-_5491_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201312272... [3] http://opentranscripts.org/transcript/no-neutral-ground-burning-world/ http://opentranscripts.org/transcript/no-neutral-ground-burn... [4] http://geer.tinho.net/geer.source.27iv17.txt http://geer.tinho.net/geer.source.27iv17.txt [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcIiD4UUDE8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcIiD4UUDE8
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  The most overtly political act most software engineers are likely to make is to choose GPL over BSD or vice-versa. Walk away from a cool idea for ethical reasons? Risk their salary or their safety? I'm sure such engineers must exist, but they're not among any I've ever known. Unfortunately, I am rather pessimistic. We're in this Orwellian/Huxlean dystopia for a reason.
  - rtpg 9y ago
    Hopefully you can spread discussion about ethics enough to where engineers can make these decisions even before joining the companies. I imagine many of us would _not_ want to work at a multi-level marketing outfit, considering how they mostly all work through exploitation. By having these discussions we can make sure that companies with dubious ethics will have an even harder time recruiting. There was a story a couple years back about a guy who wanted to form a "white supremacist village" in the countryside, and couldn't get anybody to join him. You talk enough about something, and it does have effects eventually (even if only temporary).

Corporations, yes. But employees of those corporations, less so. As a developer making <insert ethically dubious thing here>, you could have qualms about it.

by untog 9y ago

Corporations, yes. But employees of those corporations, less so. As a developer making <insert ethically dubious thing here>, you could have qualms about it.

cyberferret 9y ago

As an owner of a software development business, I've ejected my fair share of clients who have asked me to do ethically questionable things. But I wonder if a line employee who has to make rent every week and put food on the table can make the call. I don't know - I've always made the call myself, and informed my employees so I've never had an employee come to me with concerns about working with a particular client or on a particular project?

pdkl95 9y ago
> I've ejected my fair share of clients Thank you! > a line employee who has to make rent every week Some sort of software development guild or professional association could help. Like a PE's duty to disobey their boss when a project isn't safe, explicitly defined external obligations can give the employee some power (and organizational support).
- meej 9y ago
  Professional associations do have codes of ethics and ethics-focused committees and societies, but they don't seem to do a very good job of publicizing them, because I see comments like yours here with some regularity. Heck, I have been a member of IEEE since 1997 and yet I only learned of their Society on the Social Implications of Technology a few years ago. The Order of the Engineer, which is entirely focused on professional ethics, seems to be equally unknown.

et-al 9y ago

Except when things are convenient and we're benefitting from it, it's easy to explain away the negative consequences that befall others. Think of all the engineering effort to create dark patterns or make it easier for people to buy stuff. I won't work on ads, but a lot of other engineers are okay with it, especially if the money is good.

ben_jones 9y ago

All it takes for a 22 year old to write invasive ad tracking software for FB/Google is ~150k combined compensation. Also a software developer wrote this [1] at some point... Why do software developers have a presumed sense of moral superiority? Because some guy named Linus distributed an operating system for free? We're for hire just like everybody else. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootk...

pdkl95 9y ago

Unfortunately, many engineers like to pretend their work is apolitical, but there is "No Neutral Ground in a Burning World"[1]. Everything is political, eventually; technology patently has political consequences that are large in scope, highly complex, and difficult to understand fully. When you are implementing a new technology, please take some time to actively consider all of the potential consequences you can think of. Maybe your new tech just needs simple safety-considerations similar to power tools (dangerous, if misused). Maybe your new tech will disrupt existing structures that many people rely on; do you have a plan to handle that? Can someone easily use your new tech to undermine civil rights or basic freedoms? Obviously we can't foresee everything, but we can at least try to consider the potential consequences to the world, society, and people outside of tech. I know it's hard to walk away from a cool idea. It's even harder to do the right thing when it risks your salary - or your safety. For better or worse, this kind of question needs to be part of the new-tech development process. As Dan Geer said[4][5] in a recent keynote, "You have not picked a career. You have picked a crusade." [1] I strongly encourage everyone to watch this 30c3 talk[2] by Quinn Norton and Eleanor Saitta (or read the transcript[3]). [2] https://media.ccc.de/v/30C3_-_5491_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201312272300_-_no_neutral_ground_in_a_burning_world_-_quinn_norton_-_eleanor_saitta https://media.ccc.de/v/30C3_-_5491_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201312272... [3] http://opentranscripts.org/transcript/no-neutral-ground-burning-world/ http://opentranscripts.org/transcript/no-neutral-ground-burn... [4] http://geer.tinho.net/geer.source.27iv17.txt http://geer.tinho.net/geer.source.27iv17.txt [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcIiD4UUDE8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcIiD4UUDE8

pmoriarty 9y ago
The most overtly political act most software engineers are likely to make is to choose GPL over BSD or vice-versa. Walk away from a cool idea for ethical reasons? Risk their salary or their safety? I'm sure such engineers must exist, but they're not among any I've ever known. Unfortunately, I am rather pessimistic. We're in this Orwellian/Huxlean dystopia for a reason.
- rtpg 9y ago
  Hopefully you can spread discussion about ethics enough to where engineers can make these decisions even before joining the companies. I imagine many of us would _not_ want to work at a multi-level marketing outfit, considering how they mostly all work through exploitation. By having these discussions we can make sure that companies with dubious ethics will have an even harder time recruiting. There was a story a couple years back about a guy who wanted to form a "white supremacist village" in the countryside, and couldn't get anybody to join him. You talk enough about something, and it does have effects eventually (even if only temporary).