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I do agree that not everything is imposed by evil corps, but hostile products don't necessarily fail by their own: cigarettes and junk foods are just one exampl

by pera 9y ago

I do agree that not everything is imposed by evil corps, but hostile products don't necessarily fail by their own: cigarettes and junk foods are just one example of this. In general I'm not against video content in a web page, as it actually can be a good source of raw data that we can use to understand something in great details, but I would argue that in many cases video is objectively inferior to text: texts are much easier to parse (both for computers and humans) and also some irrelevant information included in the audiovisual format can reduce the entropy of a content (e.g. how a reporter looks like physically).

DeusExMachina 9y ago
Cigarettes and junk food are not hostile in this context. We are talking about things that people don’t like but are forced to get anyway. Cigarettes and junk food are definitely unhealthy, but people love them. So much that it’s hard to take them away from them.
- walterstucco 9y ago
  > We are talking about things that people don’t like but are forced to get anyway. - Driving: a lot of people drive, very few of them like it or they would learn how to do it properly - Public transport: 99,99% of people using public transport hate it - Going to the dentist - eating vegetables - taking kids to the pool and so on… all of this things are incredibly annoying to many, yet they have not failed
  - akoncius 9y ago
    so watching ads is a job?
    - walterstucco 9y ago
      In a way, it is. But I don't understand the connection. The core of the issue is the proverbial "worse is better" All the walled garden on the web are optimising one particular feature - engagement - leaving behind many others that are equally important if not more, like user's freedom or privacy. It's no wonder that investing so much money in getting users to subscribe and use the platform results in an increase of time spent by the users on the platform. It is orthogonal to the problem highlighted in the original post. The net effect is so strong that any other platform that tries to enter the market either has to waste a lot of money (if they have them) or use the same techniques that are already in place to sustain their businness The choice is on the users, but for the majority of them it's not worth it until it's too late.
    - djeikyb 9y ago
      http://www.empowr.com http://www.empowr.com is a 10+ year old tech company with this as a premise.
- smhost 9y ago
  That's a very bizarre definition of love. Few people are happy about their addiction to an unhealthy habit. Don't you think it's disingenuous to talk about user preference without talking about reward hacking? I think the internet is actually worse in this respect because much of it is systematically designed to induce addiction with no upper limit. Your evolutionary arguments are also pretty bizarre and reductionist. Maybe we did evolve using verbal communication, but we didn't evolve to be schizophrenic voyeuristic mutes without face-to-face nonverbal feedback.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    Can we stop framing arguments as "bizarre"? It's unduly personal. I don't think their arguments are bizarre, and it's better to meet them head-on than to insinuate they're weird.
coldtea 9y ago
>I do agree that not everything is imposed by evil corps, but hostile products don't necessarily fail by their own: cigarettes and junk foods are just one example of this. Cigarettes and junk foods are not hostile -- they are incredibly enticing. What they are is harmful (which is something different). Video, similarly, whether harmful or not, is very welcome by lots of people who strongly prefer it to reading.
- LambdaComplex 9y ago
  What's enticing about cigarettes?
  - coldtea 9y ago
    What's not, considering that half the global population looked forward to a pack or more every day? They're a great way to fidget, they go great with coffee, they look majestic on the big screen, and nicotine is extremely addictive. Heck, whole movies and books, and poems and songs have been written about them in a positive light. And lots. If it wasn't for the health concern people would still be smoking on airplanes and there would just be a small "non smoking" area (like in the 70s).
- Terr_ 9y ago
  No, it's still hostile, you just don't know it yet. Just as the Trojans how that big wonderful Horse statue worked out for them :p

by pera 9y ago

DeusExMachina 9y ago

Cigarettes and junk food are not hostile in this context. We are talking about things that people don’t like but are forced to get anyway. Cigarettes and junk food are definitely unhealthy, but people love them. So much that it’s hard to take them away from them.

walterstucco 9y ago
> We are talking about things that people don’t like but are forced to get anyway. - Driving: a lot of people drive, very few of them like it or they would learn how to do it properly - Public transport: 99,99% of people using public transport hate it - Going to the dentist - eating vegetables - taking kids to the pool and so on… all of this things are incredibly annoying to many, yet they have not failed
- akoncius 9y ago
  so watching ads is a job?
  - walterstucco 9y ago
    In a way, it is. But I don't understand the connection. The core of the issue is the proverbial "worse is better" All the walled garden on the web are optimising one particular feature - engagement - leaving behind many others that are equally important if not more, like user's freedom or privacy. It's no wonder that investing so much money in getting users to subscribe and use the platform results in an increase of time spent by the users on the platform. It is orthogonal to the problem highlighted in the original post. The net effect is so strong that any other platform that tries to enter the market either has to waste a lot of money (if they have them) or use the same techniques that are already in place to sustain their businness The choice is on the users, but for the majority of them it's not worth it until it's too late.
  - djeikyb 9y ago
    http://www.empowr.com http://www.empowr.com is a 10+ year old tech company with this as a premise.
smhost 9y ago
That's a very bizarre definition of love. Few people are happy about their addiction to an unhealthy habit. Don't you think it's disingenuous to talk about user preference without talking about reward hacking? I think the internet is actually worse in this respect because much of it is systematically designed to induce addiction with no upper limit. Your evolutionary arguments are also pretty bizarre and reductionist. Maybe we did evolve using verbal communication, but we didn't evolve to be schizophrenic voyeuristic mutes without face-to-face nonverbal feedback.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  Can we stop framing arguments as "bizarre"? It's unduly personal. I don't think their arguments are bizarre, and it's better to meet them head-on than to insinuate they're weird.

coldtea 9y ago

>I do agree that not everything is imposed by evil corps, but hostile products don't necessarily fail by their own: cigarettes and junk foods are just one example of this. Cigarettes and junk foods are not hostile -- they are incredibly enticing. What they are is harmful (which is something different). Video, similarly, whether harmful or not, is very welcome by lots of people who strongly prefer it to reading.

LambdaComplex 9y ago
What's enticing about cigarettes?
- coldtea 9y ago
  What's not, considering that half the global population looked forward to a pack or more every day? They're a great way to fidget, they go great with coffee, they look majestic on the big screen, and nicotine is extremely addictive. Heck, whole movies and books, and poems and songs have been written about them in a positive light. And lots. If it wasn't for the health concern people would still be smoking on airplanes and there would just be a small "non smoking" area (like in the 70s).
Terr_ 9y ago
No, it's still hostile, you just don't know it yet. Just as the Trojans how that big wonderful Horse statue worked out for them :p