4 ms·

This is something I think about a lot. How do we build a "data pyramid" that can be interpreted by future generations. I feel like much of our culture will be l

by dsnuh 9y ago

This is something I think about a lot. How do we build a "data pyramid" that can be interpreted by future generations. I feel like much of our culture will be lost to bit rot.

pcrh 9y ago
Wikipedia could be encoded into DNA and them spliced into species that are very long lived, geologically speaking, such as horseshoe crabs. Absent any negative selection against "wiki DNA", they could remain readable in millions of years time.
- gus_massa 9y ago
  You will need a very strong error correction scheme. It is not necessary to have a negative selection against "wiki DNA", if there is not positive selection the error will accumulate quickly. With a quick googling, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_rate#Variation_in_mutation_rates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_rate#Variation_in_mut... I think that a mutation rate of 10^-5 per base per generation is a good estimation for humans. Let's assume 10^-6 per base per year. So after a million year, with no selection pressure, probably more than a half of the bases will be overwritten with garbage.
  - sndean 9y ago
    It'd be smarter to simply integrate it into a genome, make copies, extract it, then lyophilize and store it. Don't house it in an organism.
  - Houshalter 9y ago
    Losing only 50% of the data after a million years doesn't sound that bad. The bigger problem is keeping knowledge that the data is there and how to get it to survive even a tenth of that length.
  - pcrh 9y ago
    Probably there would be "signal decay", but one can still make sense of a text when many of the letters are missing. So the decay would have to be more than 50% for the message to be completely useless. Also, a million years is quite a long time, I doubt there are many media one could use that one could expect to still be at least half readable in one million years time.
- dsnuh 9y ago
  I guess my issue with this line of thought is - how do you include the "playback device" along with the media? So many assumptions must be made about the theoretical future inhabitants that would "discover" our culture would be capable of technologically. How do we send the VHS tape, along with the player, instructions for how to setup the player, play the tape, output to a sensing device of some sort, and only _then_ you can possibly read only part of the data if you get that far? I don't think I will even have photos of my kids or anything from about the last 10 years or so by the time I am in my mid fifties (not as far away as I would wish). Edit: mobile make bad spells
PhasmaFelis 9y ago
Digital preservation is the name of this field. It's pretty interesting.
dsnuh 9y ago
One line of thought I was going down recently was information encoded by printing very specific and precise three-dimensional "monoliths" that display information based on postion of the nearest star (which I assume would still be Sol, and would still be around in this distant future). To give an illustration of what I am trying to describe, I am imagine something like the cover of GEB (https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1331382003l/24115.jpg https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1331382003l/24115.jpg), but on a multi-dimsensional scale. Full disclosure: [7] ;)
- consp 9y ago
  Nice idea for short term (galacticly) but as far as I know the orbits of the solar system (even the 'stable' ones[1]) are unpredictable (chaotic) to a certain degree over long timescales. Assuming sol doesn't screw us over and the output behaves as we expect. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stability_of_the_Solar_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stability_of_the_Solar_System
  - dsnuh 9y ago
    True. I suppose my point is that I belive that a _physical_ artifact is the only chance at this working. What if the culture that discovers it is in a "dark age" and doesn't even have the electricity to power these supposed future proof digital archives.
Gustomaximus 9y ago
There are 2 of these projects I know of in existence. E.g. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/01/human-knowledge-salt-mine/512552/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/01/human... Also with a lesser extent of knowledge storage this one is interesting: https://www.wired.com/2009/04/ff-guidestones/ https://www.wired.com/2009/04/ff-guidestones/

by dsnuh 9y ago

This is something I think about a lot. How do we build a "data pyramid" that can be interpreted by future generations. I feel like much of our culture will be lost to bit rot.

pcrh 9y ago

Wikipedia could be encoded into DNA and them spliced into species that are very long lived, geologically speaking, such as horseshoe crabs. Absent any negative selection against "wiki DNA", they could remain readable in millions of years time.

gus_massa 9y ago
You will need a very strong error correction scheme. It is not necessary to have a negative selection against "wiki DNA", if there is not positive selection the error will accumulate quickly. With a quick googling, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_rate#Variation_in_mutation_rates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_rate#Variation_in_mut... I think that a mutation rate of 10^-5 per base per generation is a good estimation for humans. Let's assume 10^-6 per base per year. So after a million year, with no selection pressure, probably more than a half of the bases will be overwritten with garbage.
- sndean 9y ago
  It'd be smarter to simply integrate it into a genome, make copies, extract it, then lyophilize and store it. Don't house it in an organism.
- Houshalter 9y ago
  Losing only 50% of the data after a million years doesn't sound that bad. The bigger problem is keeping knowledge that the data is there and how to get it to survive even a tenth of that length.
- pcrh 9y ago
  Probably there would be "signal decay", but one can still make sense of a text when many of the letters are missing. So the decay would have to be more than 50% for the message to be completely useless. Also, a million years is quite a long time, I doubt there are many media one could use that one could expect to still be at least half readable in one million years time.
dsnuh 9y ago
I guess my issue with this line of thought is - how do you include the "playback device" along with the media? So many assumptions must be made about the theoretical future inhabitants that would "discover" our culture would be capable of technologically. How do we send the VHS tape, along with the player, instructions for how to setup the player, play the tape, output to a sensing device of some sort, and only _then_ you can possibly read only part of the data if you get that far? I don't think I will even have photos of my kids or anything from about the last 10 years or so by the time I am in my mid fifties (not as far away as I would wish). Edit: mobile make bad spells

PhasmaFelis 9y ago

Digital preservation is the name of this field. It's pretty interesting.

dsnuh 9y ago

One line of thought I was going down recently was information encoded by printing very specific and precise three-dimensional "monoliths" that display information based on postion of the nearest star (which I assume would still be Sol, and would still be around in this distant future). To give an illustration of what I am trying to describe, I am imagine something like the cover of GEB (https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1331382003l/24115.jpg https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1331382003l/24115.jpg), but on a multi-dimsensional scale. Full disclosure: [7] ;)

consp 9y ago
Nice idea for short term (galacticly) but as far as I know the orbits of the solar system (even the 'stable' ones[1]) are unpredictable (chaotic) to a certain degree over long timescales. Assuming sol doesn't screw us over and the output behaves as we expect. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stability_of_the_Solar_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stability_of_the_Solar_System
- dsnuh 9y ago
  True. I suppose my point is that I belive that a _physical_ artifact is the only chance at this working. What if the culture that discovers it is in a "dark age" and doesn't even have the electricity to power these supposed future proof digital archives.

Gustomaximus 9y ago

There are 2 of these projects I know of in existence. E.g. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/01/human-knowledge-salt-mine/512552/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/01/human... Also with a lesser extent of knowledge storage this one is interesting: https://www.wired.com/2009/04/ff-guidestones/ https://www.wired.com/2009/04/ff-guidestones/