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> You eliminate deductions that only wealthier people benefit The Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt aren't particularly upper class cars. Neither is the Model 3.

maxerickson 9y ago
Nor are people spending $30,000 on a vehicle showing particularly price sensitive behavior. Lots of fine vehicles available for $15,000, $15,000 is an awful lot of gas (and you save on insurance and financing with a cheaper vehicle, so the lower maintenance on the electric isn't the only consideration).
- chk_ur_autism 9y ago
  Maybe it's not just about cost, but about driving a vehicle that doesn't directly contribute to diffused emissions? And use motor oil, hydraulic fluid, coolant, belts, etc?
  - antisthenes 9y ago
    If you're going to compare long term maintenance costs, you absolutely have to include the battery pack replacement cost. Otherwise you're being disingenuous or even deceptive. Many '11-'12 Leaf owners are already complaining about significantly reduced ranges on their vehicles. What happens after 60,000 miles if your battery starts rapidly going under 9 bars? Keep driving with terrible range anxiety? Plan your routes with chargers in mind? Have a stopless commute now require you to stop and charge, making trips even longer? Replace the battery pack? http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1111264_new-life-for-old-nissan-leaf-electric-car-battery-replacement-and-what-it-took/page-3 http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1111264_new-life-for-old... Whoops, that's going to be $6,200.
    - smileysteve 9y ago
      > If you're going to compare long term maintenance costs, you absolutely have to include the battery pack replacement cost. > Keep driving with terrible range anxiety? If we're bringing all of this up; we must consider the reliability increase as well.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
DataWorker 9y ago
They aren’t an option for the majority of Americans.
dogruck 9y ago
Yes, those are cars for the wealthy. Most people cannot even afford a car. If they can, they’re probably not buying a new car. And, if they do buy a new car, they’re probably looking to spend close to $20,000.
- akhilcacharya 9y ago
  My parents just spent a little over $20k on a Leaf. Not exactly a Bentley.
  - dogruck 9y ago
    Congratulations, your parents are relatively wealthy. And, did they buy a new one? MSRP is $30,680: https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/versions-specs/version.s.html https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/versions-specs/...
    - akhilcacharya 9y ago
      New, yes, $30k no. electric utility provided a significant deal. In some states you can apparently get the 2016 model for $15k out the door now.
      - dogruck 9y ago
        A 2016 model year car, at the end of 2017, is not “new”. Also, I don’t know what specific electric utility subsidy you’re referring to, but that doesn’t help your argument, in this thread about subsidies, IMO. What was the out-the-door price for your parent’s 2017 Leaf?
- smileysteve 9y ago
  > If they can, they’re probably not buying a new car. While it's a subsidy; the benefits don't stop at the first purchase. As long as the subsidy continues, prices for used EVs will stay below prices of new EVs.
dahdum 9y ago
They are more like the 2nd/3rd car for the upper middle class. So many in the Bay Area are used just for commuting in EV lanes and charging at work by people who don't need the tax credit.
ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
Are you sure about that? Just because something is priced in a range that would be affordable to most professionals, liberals or conservatives, does not mean it isn't associated with the elite. This toilet paper is made of gold... but do you think its the "elites" that are buying it? http://wsimain.wallstreetinsani.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/17-Insanely-Expensive-Versions-Of-Household-Items1.jpg http://wsimain.wallstreetinsani.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/up... I know 4 people who purchased used Nissan Leaf's for under 10,000 with the tax credit in California. They all make over 6 figures. My conservative neighbor makes less than $60,000 per year, and has a truck that costs that much.
adamkittelson 9y ago
It's not so much the value of the car that determines whether the credit benefits the wealthy or not. This is a tax credit, not just a check from the government. You have to have a fairly high income in order to have a federal tax liability of $7500. A single person would need to make almost $50k a year in order to benefit from the full credit. That's not a big number by developer standards but it's more than the median household income in the US. (Having said that I'm for the credit and have already benefited from it twice.)
dsfyu404ed 9y ago
Buying specialized vehicles is a very upper class thing to do. The middle and lower classes aren't willing to pay new car prices for something unless it can do everything, not just commute or tow their camper or boat. That's why crossovers, SUVs and half-ton pickups with multiple rows of seating are so popular among less wealthy new car buyers. Buying a commuter vehicle that can do little else well is definitely an upper class(es) thing.
stusmall 9y ago
That's why I said wealthier. As a lot of people pointed out new cars, especially electric, are still something bought by people earning more than average. These aren't yachts but they are still target higher end come breaks. Even with the tax breaks that include middle class earners benefit the rich more just by the nature of how deductions work. The rich tax payer would have had this deducted income taxed at a higher bracket than the middle tax payer would thus a bigger absolute savings on their tax bill.
- smileysteve 9y ago
  http://www.businessinsider.com/us-census-median-income-2017-9 http://www.businessinsider.com/us-census-median-income-2017-... Between 2015 and 2016, US median household income rose 3.2% from $57,230 to $59,039, according to a new report released by the U.S. Census Bureau on Tuesday. So, yes, the median household income is right in line with being able to purchase a 20k vehicle.

maxerickson 9y ago

Nor are people spending $30,000 on a vehicle showing particularly price sensitive behavior. Lots of fine vehicles available for $15,000, $15,000 is an awful lot of gas (and you save on insurance and financing with a cheaper vehicle, so the lower maintenance on the electric isn't the only consideration).

chk_ur_autism 9y ago
Maybe it's not just about cost, but about driving a vehicle that doesn't directly contribute to diffused emissions? And use motor oil, hydraulic fluid, coolant, belts, etc?
- antisthenes 9y ago
  If you're going to compare long term maintenance costs, you absolutely have to include the battery pack replacement cost. Otherwise you're being disingenuous or even deceptive. Many '11-'12 Leaf owners are already complaining about significantly reduced ranges on their vehicles. What happens after 60,000 miles if your battery starts rapidly going under 9 bars? Keep driving with terrible range anxiety? Plan your routes with chargers in mind? Have a stopless commute now require you to stop and charge, making trips even longer? Replace the battery pack? http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1111264_new-life-for-old-nissan-leaf-electric-car-battery-replacement-and-what-it-took/page-3 http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1111264_new-life-for-old... Whoops, that's going to be $6,200.
  - smileysteve 9y ago
    > If you're going to compare long term maintenance costs, you absolutely have to include the battery pack replacement cost. > Keep driving with terrible range anxiety? If we're bringing all of this up; we must consider the reliability increase as well.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

DataWorker 9y ago

They aren’t an option for the majority of Americans.

dogruck 9y ago

Yes, those are cars for the wealthy. Most people cannot even afford a car. If they can, they’re probably not buying a new car. And, if they do buy a new car, they’re probably looking to spend close to $20,000.

akhilcacharya 9y ago
My parents just spent a little over $20k on a Leaf. Not exactly a Bentley.
- dogruck 9y ago
  Congratulations, your parents are relatively wealthy. And, did they buy a new one? MSRP is $30,680: https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/versions-specs/version.s.html https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/versions-specs/...
  - akhilcacharya 9y ago
    New, yes, $30k no. electric utility provided a significant deal. In some states you can apparently get the 2016 model for $15k out the door now.
    - dogruck 9y ago
      A 2016 model year car, at the end of 2017, is not “new”. Also, I don’t know what specific electric utility subsidy you’re referring to, but that doesn’t help your argument, in this thread about subsidies, IMO. What was the out-the-door price for your parent’s 2017 Leaf?
smileysteve 9y ago
> If they can, they’re probably not buying a new car. While it's a subsidy; the benefits don't stop at the first purchase. As long as the subsidy continues, prices for used EVs will stay below prices of new EVs.

dahdum 9y ago

They are more like the 2nd/3rd car for the upper middle class. So many in the Bay Area are used just for commuting in EV lanes and charging at work by people who don't need the tax credit.

ghostbrainalpha 9y ago

Are you sure about that? Just because something is priced in a range that would be affordable to most professionals, liberals or conservatives, does not mean it isn't associated with the elite. This toilet paper is made of gold... but do you think its the "elites" that are buying it? http://wsimain.wallstreetinsani.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/17-Insanely-Expensive-Versions-Of-Household-Items1.jpg http://wsimain.wallstreetinsani.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/up... I know 4 people who purchased used Nissan Leaf's for under 10,000 with the tax credit in California. They all make over 6 figures. My conservative neighbor makes less than $60,000 per year, and has a truck that costs that much.

adamkittelson 9y ago

It's not so much the value of the car that determines whether the credit benefits the wealthy or not. This is a tax credit, not just a check from the government. You have to have a fairly high income in order to have a federal tax liability of $7500. A single person would need to make almost $50k a year in order to benefit from the full credit. That's not a big number by developer standards but it's more than the median household income in the US. (Having said that I'm for the credit and have already benefited from it twice.)

dsfyu404ed 9y ago

Buying specialized vehicles is a very upper class thing to do. The middle and lower classes aren't willing to pay new car prices for something unless it can do everything, not just commute or tow their camper or boat. That's why crossovers, SUVs and half-ton pickups with multiple rows of seating are so popular among less wealthy new car buyers. Buying a commuter vehicle that can do little else well is definitely an upper class(es) thing.

stusmall 9y ago

That's why I said wealthier. As a lot of people pointed out new cars, especially electric, are still something bought by people earning more than average. These aren't yachts but they are still target higher end come breaks. Even with the tax breaks that include middle class earners benefit the rich more just by the nature of how deductions work. The rich tax payer would have had this deducted income taxed at a higher bracket than the middle tax payer would thus a bigger absolute savings on their tax bill.

smileysteve 9y ago
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-census-median-income-2017-9 http://www.businessinsider.com/us-census-median-income-2017-... Between 2015 and 2016, US median household income rose 3.2% from $57,230 to $59,039, according to a new report released by the U.S. Census Bureau on Tuesday. So, yes, the median household income is right in line with being able to purchase a 20k vehicle.