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"Seriously, it's the kind of garbage that makes me think your opinion and your code cannot be relied on" is, quite bluntly, a personal attack, directly commenti

"Seriously, it's the kind of garbage that makes me think your opinion and your code cannot be relied on" is, quite bluntly, a personal attack, directly commenting on an entire developer's code history and knowledge based on one single issue. This could be worded a lot better. The profanity is also unnecessary. The rule of thumb I've seen in your typical management oriented business books ( eg, your books / training like Crucial Conversations: https://www.vitalsmarts.com/crucial-conversations-training/ https://www.vitalsmarts.com/crucial-conversations-training/ ) is to be "persuasive, not abrasive" as that site says. The issue with being abrasive is that one way people might react is by instinctively attacking back -- no matter how technically correct you are, f-bombs and personal attacks might tempt others to throw counterpoint f-bombs and personal attacks back. Another is that repeated behavior along these lines might drive away some people who would rather not see profanity and anger in their mailbox. Everyone loses their temper occasionally, and John Johansen reacted in the way you should to someone who loses their temper. Unfortunately, the Linux community as a whole has a reputation in some circles for being overly "hostile" and "toxic". Linus himself has this reputation. How much this reputation dents Linux contribution and usage isn't known, but I doubt anyone can say that this is a positive.

notyourday 9y ago
> Unfortunately, the Linux community as a whole has a reputation in some circles for being overly "hostile" and "toxic". Linus himself has this reputation. How much this reputation dents Linux contribution and usage isn't known, but I doubt anyone can say that this is a positive. Except that it is still being used unlike the other "nice" projects. BeOS. For example.
- soundwave106 9y ago
  It is possible to be technically brilliant and wildly succeed in your project, and usually do overall good when it comes to project management... and yet have certain personality flaws that may hinder your management skills. What I know is that I've never read advice geared for managers which states that the route to success comes from being an abrasive boss.
  - notyourday 9y ago
    That's because people love being an uninspiring middle. It is safe. It is sufficiently pleasant. It is secure. And it definitely sells lots of books.
- erik_seaberg 9y ago
  To be fair, BeOS was killed by Microsoft threatening OEMs into refusing to carry their product. Linux only escaped because it wasn't owned by a corporation that needed revenue to survive.
pdkl95 9y ago
> quite bluntly, a personal attack I don't see how this is a personal attack. I call the quoted comment a plainly-stated critique of a developer's portfolio. If you have repeatedly demonstrated a problem following basic requirements (ref: "denying the regression now for three weeks"), that's a good reason to presume problems might exist (i.e. "your code cannot be relied upon"). Linus tends to write this type of "blunt" letter only after other ("nicer") attempts have repeatedly failed, and a pattern of problematic behavior exists. Accurately describing someone's reputation based on their actual work and behavior is not a personal attack. Without false claims - aka actual slander or libel - you earn your own reputation which other people can and will include in their opinions about you. > The profanity is also unnecessary. I don't see any profanity in the quoted comment. > the Linux community ...is another matter entirely, and a discussion for another thread.
- soundwave106 9y ago
  The profanity is in the original post ("Stop gthis f*cking idiocy already!", "bogus SHIT"). From my viewpoint, the problem with the personal attack is the overreaching scope and the hostile wording, not necessarily the critique. It is easy to be firm about laying down the rules of development without getting into the realm of "your entire code and opinion". There is absolutely nothing wrong with his later post on this in my opinion ( http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02487.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02487.html ) and I don't think he's any less firm about the development rules here.
bcoates 9y ago
Linus isn't a manager, he's in charge. Persuading people to move in the same direction is a critical management skill but fundamentally not the job of someone actually steering things, and it's entirely common for the person in that role to just bluntly do the decision loop thing and let someone else put a happy face on it. If you're driven away from having the job of transforming specific concrete direction into action for a large important organization then you should probably find a different job. Not everyone needs to put up with that, although if you have ambitions as a manager of people it will probably be career limiting. The only strange thing about the Linux kernel is how it's all done in public instead of face to face.

notyourday 9y ago

> Unfortunately, the Linux community as a whole has a reputation in some circles for being overly "hostile" and "toxic". Linus himself has this reputation. How much this reputation dents Linux contribution and usage isn't known, but I doubt anyone can say that this is a positive. Except that it is still being used unlike the other "nice" projects. BeOS. For example.

soundwave106 9y ago
It is possible to be technically brilliant and wildly succeed in your project, and usually do overall good when it comes to project management... and yet have certain personality flaws that may hinder your management skills. What I know is that I've never read advice geared for managers which states that the route to success comes from being an abrasive boss.
- notyourday 9y ago
  That's because people love being an uninspiring middle. It is safe. It is sufficiently pleasant. It is secure. And it definitely sells lots of books.
erik_seaberg 9y ago
To be fair, BeOS was killed by Microsoft threatening OEMs into refusing to carry their product. Linux only escaped because it wasn't owned by a corporation that needed revenue to survive.

pdkl95 9y ago

> quite bluntly, a personal attack I don't see how this is a personal attack. I call the quoted comment a plainly-stated critique of a developer's portfolio. If you have repeatedly demonstrated a problem following basic requirements (ref: "denying the regression now for three weeks"), that's a good reason to presume problems might exist (i.e. "your code cannot be relied upon"). Linus tends to write this type of "blunt" letter only after other ("nicer") attempts have repeatedly failed, and a pattern of problematic behavior exists. Accurately describing someone's reputation based on their actual work and behavior is not a personal attack. Without false claims - aka actual slander or libel - you earn your own reputation which other people can and will include in their opinions about you. > The profanity is also unnecessary. I don't see any profanity in the quoted comment. > the Linux community ...is another matter entirely, and a discussion for another thread.

soundwave106 9y ago
The profanity is in the original post ("Stop gthis f*cking idiocy already!", "bogus SHIT"). From my viewpoint, the problem with the personal attack is the overreaching scope and the hostile wording, not necessarily the critique. It is easy to be firm about laying down the rules of development without getting into the realm of "your entire code and opinion". There is absolutely nothing wrong with his later post on this in my opinion ( http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02487.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02487.html ) and I don't think he's any less firm about the development rules here.

bcoates 9y ago

Linus isn't a manager, he's in charge. Persuading people to move in the same direction is a critical management skill but fundamentally not the job of someone actually steering things, and it's entirely common for the person in that role to just bluntly do the decision loop thing and let someone else put a happy face on it. If you're driven away from having the job of transforming specific concrete direction into action for a large important organization then you should probably find a different job. Not everyone needs to put up with that, although if you have ambitions as a manager of people it will probably be career limiting. The only strange thing about the Linux kernel is how it's all done in public instead of face to face.