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What behavior? Linus's comments were carefully directed at the bad behavior that needed to be fixed. I don't see any personal attacks. Linus is a manager, and p

by pdkl95 9y ago

What behavior? Linus's comments were carefully directed at the bad behavior that needed to be fixed. I don't see any personal attacks. Linus is a manager, and part of being a manager includes putting your foot down when someone is causing problems. Ideally, the situation should be handled directly and unambiguously ("The thing you're doing is incorrect and causing problems. Stop doing that.") before the problems become worse. > trying to shift the regressions somewhere else is bogus SHIT. That's accurate and specifically points to the unacceptable behavior that needs to be fixed. Linus's "WE DON'T BREAK USERSPACE. EVER." policy is well known, documented, and mentioned frequently. It's reasonable to expect anyone submitting patches to understand this, which makes trying to shift the blame elsewhere... well... "bogus SHIT", regardless of the specific words you use to describe it. > I will stop pulling apparmor requests until the people involved understand how kernel development is done. Note that Linus is specifically indicating that this is fixable. Given John Johansen's very commendable apology (see link in grandparent comment), it looks like the message was understood. I suspect this will work out much better in the future. -- edit: Diluting language to make it "nicer" can remove important information. See: "How a plan becomes policy" https://funnyshit.com.au/the_plan.html https://funnyshit.com.au/the_plan.html

soundwave106 9y ago
"Seriously, it's the kind of garbage that makes me think your opinion and your code cannot be relied on" is, quite bluntly, a personal attack, directly commenting on an entire developer's code history and knowledge based on one single issue. This could be worded a lot better. The profanity is also unnecessary. The rule of thumb I've seen in your typical management oriented business books ( eg, your books / training like Crucial Conversations: https://www.vitalsmarts.com/crucial-conversations-training/ https://www.vitalsmarts.com/crucial-conversations-training/ ) is to be "persuasive, not abrasive" as that site says. The issue with being abrasive is that one way people might react is by instinctively attacking back -- no matter how technically correct you are, f-bombs and personal attacks might tempt others to throw counterpoint f-bombs and personal attacks back. Another is that repeated behavior along these lines might drive away some people who would rather not see profanity and anger in their mailbox. Everyone loses their temper occasionally, and John Johansen reacted in the way you should to someone who loses their temper. Unfortunately, the Linux community as a whole has a reputation in some circles for being overly "hostile" and "toxic". Linus himself has this reputation. How much this reputation dents Linux contribution and usage isn't known, but I doubt anyone can say that this is a positive.
- notyourday 9y ago
  > Unfortunately, the Linux community as a whole has a reputation in some circles for being overly "hostile" and "toxic". Linus himself has this reputation. How much this reputation dents Linux contribution and usage isn't known, but I doubt anyone can say that this is a positive. Except that it is still being used unlike the other "nice" projects. BeOS. For example.
  - soundwave106 9y ago
    It is possible to be technically brilliant and wildly succeed in your project, and usually do overall good when it comes to project management... and yet have certain personality flaws that may hinder your management skills. What I know is that I've never read advice geared for managers which states that the route to success comes from being an abrasive boss.
    - notyourday 9y ago
      That's because people love being an uninspiring middle. It is safe. It is sufficiently pleasant. It is secure. And it definitely sells lots of books.
  - erik_seaberg 9y ago
    To be fair, BeOS was killed by Microsoft threatening OEMs into refusing to carry their product. Linux only escaped because it wasn't owned by a corporation that needed revenue to survive.
- pdkl95 9y ago
  > quite bluntly, a personal attack I don't see how this is a personal attack. I call the quoted comment a plainly-stated critique of a developer's portfolio. If you have repeatedly demonstrated a problem following basic requirements (ref: "denying the regression now for three weeks"), that's a good reason to presume problems might exist (i.e. "your code cannot be relied upon"). Linus tends to write this type of "blunt" letter only after other ("nicer") attempts have repeatedly failed, and a pattern of problematic behavior exists. Accurately describing someone's reputation based on their actual work and behavior is not a personal attack. Without false claims - aka actual slander or libel - you earn your own reputation which other people can and will include in their opinions about you. > The profanity is also unnecessary. I don't see any profanity in the quoted comment. > the Linux community ...is another matter entirely, and a discussion for another thread.

by pdkl95 9y ago

soundwave106 9y ago

"Seriously, it's the kind of garbage that makes me think your opinion and your code cannot be relied on" is, quite bluntly, a personal attack, directly commenting on an entire developer's code history and knowledge based on one single issue. This could be worded a lot better. The profanity is also unnecessary. The rule of thumb I've seen in your typical management oriented business books ( eg, your books / training like Crucial Conversations: https://www.vitalsmarts.com/crucial-conversations-training/ https://www.vitalsmarts.com/crucial-conversations-training/ ) is to be "persuasive, not abrasive" as that site says. The issue with being abrasive is that one way people might react is by instinctively attacking back -- no matter how technically correct you are, f-bombs and personal attacks might tempt others to throw counterpoint f-bombs and personal attacks back. Another is that repeated behavior along these lines might drive away some people who would rather not see profanity and anger in their mailbox. Everyone loses their temper occasionally, and John Johansen reacted in the way you should to someone who loses their temper. Unfortunately, the Linux community as a whole has a reputation in some circles for being overly "hostile" and "toxic". Linus himself has this reputation. How much this reputation dents Linux contribution and usage isn't known, but I doubt anyone can say that this is a positive.

notyourday 9y ago
> Unfortunately, the Linux community as a whole has a reputation in some circles for being overly "hostile" and "toxic". Linus himself has this reputation. How much this reputation dents Linux contribution and usage isn't known, but I doubt anyone can say that this is a positive. Except that it is still being used unlike the other "nice" projects. BeOS. For example.
- soundwave106 9y ago
  It is possible to be technically brilliant and wildly succeed in your project, and usually do overall good when it comes to project management... and yet have certain personality flaws that may hinder your management skills. What I know is that I've never read advice geared for managers which states that the route to success comes from being an abrasive boss.
  - notyourday 9y ago
    That's because people love being an uninspiring middle. It is safe. It is sufficiently pleasant. It is secure. And it definitely sells lots of books.
- erik_seaberg 9y ago
  To be fair, BeOS was killed by Microsoft threatening OEMs into refusing to carry their product. Linux only escaped because it wasn't owned by a corporation that needed revenue to survive.
pdkl95 9y ago
> quite bluntly, a personal attack I don't see how this is a personal attack. I call the quoted comment a plainly-stated critique of a developer's portfolio. If you have repeatedly demonstrated a problem following basic requirements (ref: "denying the regression now for three weeks"), that's a good reason to presume problems might exist (i.e. "your code cannot be relied upon"). Linus tends to write this type of "blunt" letter only after other ("nicer") attempts have repeatedly failed, and a pattern of problematic behavior exists. Accurately describing someone's reputation based on their actual work and behavior is not a personal attack. Without false claims - aka actual slander or libel - you earn your own reputation which other people can and will include in their opinions about you. > The profanity is also unnecessary. I don't see any profanity in the quoted comment. > the Linux community ...is another matter entirely, and a discussion for another thread.