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Just because Linus is effective at communicating what he wants doesn't mean his way is the best way. Why wouldn't it be even better if he alienated contributors

Just because Linus is effective at communicating what he wants doesn't mean his way is the best way. Why wouldn't it be even better if he alienated contributors less?

toomuchtodo 9y ago
Because high quality kernel code is more important than not alienating contributors. If someone prefers softer conduct, they are free to fork the kernel and start their own efforts.
- tertius 9y ago
  > If someone prefers softer conduct The big issue I see people reacting to is profanity. You can be as hard on someone, given the nature of the infraction, without using profane language or denigrating someone. If they don't comply, threaten exactly what Linus threatened, no more commits will be accepted. While I don't disagree with Linus' right to speak as he does. He can be just as effective without the type of language he uses. Some people don't care about "foul language" some others clearly do...
  - Karunamon 9y ago
    How was the contributor in this case "denigrated"? There's a difference between calling someone stupid and calling their actions stupid. I've seen plenty of the latter from Linus, but never the former.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    I don't see the problem with profanity, different strokes for different folks.
    - jordigh 9y ago
      Profanity by itself isn't the problem. I don't have a problem with shit piss cunt fuck either. It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed, and other ad-hominem angry insults that just fosters a macho, jockish atmosphere in Linux that has demonstrably alienated capable contributors. I'm sorry that Sarah Sharp is no longer maintaining the USB modules because of Linus's attitude, because I've never seen anyone else who knows as much about USB as she does.
      - tertius 9y ago
        Let's put this in a vacuum (since I'm not too familiar with the whole saga over time and I'd like to see an honest response.) > It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed, and other ad-hominem angry insults that just fosters a macho, jockish atmosphere in Linux that has demonstrably alienated capable contributors. I'll quote bits one at a time. > It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed What if they are? How do you handle the situation? > and other ad-hominem angry insults I would argue that saying some patch is worthless and cannot be fixed isn't ad-hominem. But I'd like to get your view, since it seems you've read a lot on the topic and care about the OSS community. (Edit: As an aside, my personal policy in this regard is temperance in my reaction, and this is especially easy when written.)
      - busterarm 9y ago
        > It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed, and other ad-hominem angry insults that just fosters a macho, jockish atmosphere in Linux that has demonstrably alienated capable contributors. Linux is a project of such a massive scale that Linus has to accept kernel commits from circles of trust in his developer community. If someone demonstrates that they don't understand the fundamental goals of the project, and their contributions are accepted largely based on trust, then yes, their contributions are effectively worthless. They have to be moved to a further out circle and have their work filtered up through others, and you have to second guess every piece of work that they've contributed.
        tertius 9y ago
        I think you're addressing the first half of his objection to Linus' behaviour, not the second half though. I agree with you completely, but I can see how this can be accomplished, i.e. removal of trust and correction (public at that) without the need to demolish the person him/herself. I think we can both agree that it's a fine line though. Personally, "losing your temper" (i.e. something you have to apologize for later) is something that should be relegated to children. Adults should exhibit self-control in this regard. You can get the "job" done without this. Some have to work harder at it than others. But saying that it's just okay to denigrate others is not correct.
  - arkh 9y ago
    In my culture we use what you'd call profanity as punctuation marks. I feel it is imperialist for people from one culture to want people from other cultures to adhere to their way of communicating.
    - grzm 9y ago
      I understand where you're coming from. It's important to take the cultures and expectations of each participant if one's goal is to communicate effectively. And that goes both ways. Both the speaker and the listener need to take this into account. If one's dogmatic, believing that requiring any change on their own part to accommodate the listener, that gets in the way of the goal of communicating effectively, just as expecting a speaker to conform to one's own standards as a listener. It really needs to be looked at from each person's perspective.
      - Karunamon 9y ago
        And part of that is understanding when those perspectives are valuable and when they are irrelevant noise. I'd wager (but have no way of proving) that the quality of the Linux kernel has not been negatively impacted by a lack of people who get upset over word choice. Culture ownership is a thing, and Linus and team were there first. Oncomers need to adapt, or go elsewhere. They certainly don't need to provide this constant distraction.
        tertius 9y ago
        > quality of the Linux kernel has not been negatively impacted I don't think that would be a good argument to make from either perspective. If people who choose to leave the community don't contribute you can't really measure lost contribution. That not being the crux of the issue, we should focus on the following. Just because a product is successful does not mean that the abuse that happens during development of that product is good or okay. And I think that's really the gist of what people are saying.
  - busterarm 9y ago
    Profanity, like any other piece of language, is a tool. It exists and is perpetuated in a culture's lex lingua precisely because it is an effective tool. Expletives like this cut right through rational and emotional filters to trigger exactly the kind of response Linus was looking for -- after three weeks of arguing, the guy finally realized his mistake.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  > high quality kernel code is more important than not alienating contributors That's not the choice; there are other, more effective ways to produce quality code; they are well known and well tested. I would expect that Linux loses more quality code, from contributors who have better things to do than deal with unprofessional behavior, than it gains.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    > I would expect that Linux loses more quality code, from contributors who have better things to do than deal with unprofessional behavior, than it gains. The evidence doesn't bear that out. I would expect more contributions from experienced developers who don't care about the words used in kernel mailing list discussions.
- rthomas6 9y ago
  Why do we have to choose one over the other? Why can't we have high quality kernel code AND not alienating contributors?
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    Because enforcing politeness and civility in large groups is impossible without top down leadership enforcing it, which Linus doesn’t appear to want to do. He has chosen code over comfort as the de facto leader of the project.
    - rthomas6 9y ago
      That's not an argument for why Linus's way is the best way to lead a project, or why we can't have civility and high quality. You just restated what he has chosen to do.

Just because Linus is effective at communicating what he wants doesn't mean his way is the best way. Why wouldn't it be even better if he alienated contributors less?

toomuchtodo 9y ago

Because high quality kernel code is more important than not alienating contributors. If someone prefers softer conduct, they are free to fork the kernel and start their own efforts.

tertius 9y ago
> If someone prefers softer conduct The big issue I see people reacting to is profanity. You can be as hard on someone, given the nature of the infraction, without using profane language or denigrating someone. If they don't comply, threaten exactly what Linus threatened, no more commits will be accepted. While I don't disagree with Linus' right to speak as he does. He can be just as effective without the type of language he uses. Some people don't care about "foul language" some others clearly do...
- Karunamon 9y ago
  How was the contributor in this case "denigrated"? There's a difference between calling someone stupid and calling their actions stupid. I've seen plenty of the latter from Linus, but never the former.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  I don't see the problem with profanity, different strokes for different folks.
  - jordigh 9y ago
    Profanity by itself isn't the problem. I don't have a problem with shit piss cunt fuck either. It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed, and other ad-hominem angry insults that just fosters a macho, jockish atmosphere in Linux that has demonstrably alienated capable contributors. I'm sorry that Sarah Sharp is no longer maintaining the USB modules because of Linus's attitude, because I've never seen anyone else who knows as much about USB as she does.
    - tertius 9y ago
      Let's put this in a vacuum (since I'm not too familiar with the whole saga over time and I'd like to see an honest response.) > It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed, and other ad-hominem angry insults that just fosters a macho, jockish atmosphere in Linux that has demonstrably alienated capable contributors. I'll quote bits one at a time. > It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed What if they are? How do you handle the situation? > and other ad-hominem angry insults I would argue that saying some patch is worthless and cannot be fixed isn't ad-hominem. But I'd like to get your view, since it seems you've read a lot on the topic and care about the OSS community. (Edit: As an aside, my personal policy in this regard is temperance in my reaction, and this is especially easy when written.)
    - busterarm 9y ago
      > It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed, and other ad-hominem angry insults that just fosters a macho, jockish atmosphere in Linux that has demonstrably alienated capable contributors. Linux is a project of such a massive scale that Linus has to accept kernel commits from circles of trust in his developer community. If someone demonstrates that they don't understand the fundamental goals of the project, and their contributions are accepted largely based on trust, then yes, their contributions are effectively worthless. They have to be moved to a further out circle and have their work filtered up through others, and you have to second guess every piece of work that they've contributed.
      - tertius 9y ago
        I think you're addressing the first half of his objection to Linus' behaviour, not the second half though. I agree with you completely, but I can see how this can be accomplished, i.e. removal of trust and correction (public at that) without the need to demolish the person him/herself. I think we can both agree that it's a fine line though. Personally, "losing your temper" (i.e. something you have to apologize for later) is something that should be relegated to children. Adults should exhibit self-control in this regard. You can get the "job" done without this. Some have to work harder at it than others. But saying that it's just okay to denigrate others is not correct.
- arkh 9y ago
  In my culture we use what you'd call profanity as punctuation marks. I feel it is imperialist for people from one culture to want people from other cultures to adhere to their way of communicating.
  - grzm 9y ago
    I understand where you're coming from. It's important to take the cultures and expectations of each participant if one's goal is to communicate effectively. And that goes both ways. Both the speaker and the listener need to take this into account. If one's dogmatic, believing that requiring any change on their own part to accommodate the listener, that gets in the way of the goal of communicating effectively, just as expecting a speaker to conform to one's own standards as a listener. It really needs to be looked at from each person's perspective.
    - Karunamon 9y ago
      And part of that is understanding when those perspectives are valuable and when they are irrelevant noise. I'd wager (but have no way of proving) that the quality of the Linux kernel has not been negatively impacted by a lack of people who get upset over word choice. Culture ownership is a thing, and Linus and team were there first. Oncomers need to adapt, or go elsewhere. They certainly don't need to provide this constant distraction.
      - tertius 9y ago
        > quality of the Linux kernel has not been negatively impacted I don't think that would be a good argument to make from either perspective. If people who choose to leave the community don't contribute you can't really measure lost contribution. That not being the crux of the issue, we should focus on the following. Just because a product is successful does not mean that the abuse that happens during development of that product is good or okay. And I think that's really the gist of what people are saying.
- busterarm 9y ago
  Profanity, like any other piece of language, is a tool. It exists and is perpetuated in a culture's lex lingua precisely because it is an effective tool. Expletives like this cut right through rational and emotional filters to trigger exactly the kind of response Linus was looking for -- after three weeks of arguing, the guy finally realized his mistake.
forapurpose 9y ago
> high quality kernel code is more important than not alienating contributors That's not the choice; there are other, more effective ways to produce quality code; they are well known and well tested. I would expect that Linux loses more quality code, from contributors who have better things to do than deal with unprofessional behavior, than it gains.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  > I would expect that Linux loses more quality code, from contributors who have better things to do than deal with unprofessional behavior, than it gains. The evidence doesn't bear that out. I would expect more contributions from experienced developers who don't care about the words used in kernel mailing list discussions.
rthomas6 9y ago
Why do we have to choose one over the other? Why can't we have high quality kernel code AND not alienating contributors?
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  Because enforcing politeness and civility in large groups is impossible without top down leadership enforcing it, which Linus doesn’t appear to want to do. He has chosen code over comfort as the de facto leader of the project.
  - rthomas6 9y ago
    That's not an argument for why Linus's way is the best way to lead a project, or why we can't have civility and high quality. You just restated what he has chosen to do.