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Disagree. It seems like Linus’ acerbic and direct means of communicating is the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. He’s also made his views on “

Disagree. It seems like Linus’ acerbic and direct means of communicating is the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. He’s also made his views on “why not be nicer” well known. People need to get over it - his project, his rules. Plenty of other projects out there to hack on if getting yelled at when you disengage your brain is too much. Most of which don’t have the obsession with not breaking stuff for the end user...

stinos 9y ago
> acerbic and direct Isn't this just swearing? > the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. I'm not sure if I'm buying that. It's possible, sure but on the other hand: It's not because the other way (i.e. communicating in a nice way, without all the swearing and direct attacks - which is imo not the same as direct communication) hasn't been tried that somehow proves it won't work. E.g. I know repos where one maintainer is kind yet gets things done, and another one seems to have borrowed his communication style from Linus and gets less done. Because people just give up, being sick of being yelled at in an unpolite manner. Is it that hard to be respectful, even when disagreeing?
- goialoq 9y ago
  Do people who don't break users and lie about it get yelled at? Why are impolite words worse that actual harmful actions?
  - tertius 9y ago
    Though I don't disagree with Linus' words. He could convey the same thoughts without swearing. I don't swear and I'm very capable of correcting people when they mess up.
    - Karunamon 9y ago
      Why is not swearing a virtue?
- Karunamon 9y ago
  This isn’t a “disagreement” talk in the op. This is a “you screwed up and then lied about it and now I have to work around your bad faith” talk. Different purposes.
jordigh 9y ago
Matt Mackall, another cranky kernel hacker, showed me a lot about how it's possible to say "no" to many eager changes that would have broken Mercurial and not be yelling obscenities about it. Linus is no role model. His imprecations are not what make Linux work.
- colechristensen 9y ago
  You can have lots of theories about what would or wouldn't make Linux work, but the facts on the ground are that Linux is wildly successful, and Linus behaves as he does. The latter has been an integral part of the former.
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    Correlation, however, is not causation. You can't say that Linux is wildly successful because Linus behaves as he does.
    - forapurpose 9y ago
      It's not even correlation. Correlation is: (if A then B) AND (if not A then not B) Every day, the rooster crows and the sun rises; that's not correlation. Periodically, Linus vocalizes in this way and Linux releases.
      - zimpenfish 9y ago
        > (if A then B) That's causation, surely. > Every day, the rooster crows and the sun rises; that's not correlation. Why not? That's literally (if A then B) according to your definition.
      - colechristensen 9y ago
        Linus created and then named Linux after himself. He runs it and has for decades. And we're trying to deny that his behavior is even correlated with Linux' success?
    - 9y ago
rthomas6 9y ago
Just because Linus is effective at communicating what he wants doesn't mean his way is the best way. Why wouldn't it be even better if he alienated contributors less?
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  Because high quality kernel code is more important than not alienating contributors. If someone prefers softer conduct, they are free to fork the kernel and start their own efforts.
  - tertius 9y ago
    > If someone prefers softer conduct The big issue I see people reacting to is profanity. You can be as hard on someone, given the nature of the infraction, without using profane language or denigrating someone. If they don't comply, threaten exactly what Linus threatened, no more commits will be accepted. While I don't disagree with Linus' right to speak as he does. He can be just as effective without the type of language he uses. Some people don't care about "foul language" some others clearly do...
    - Karunamon 9y ago
      How was the contributor in this case "denigrated"? There's a difference between calling someone stupid and calling their actions stupid. I've seen plenty of the latter from Linus, but never the former.
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      I don't see the problem with profanity, different strokes for different folks.
      - jordigh 9y ago
        Profanity by itself isn't the problem. I don't have a problem with shit piss cunt fuck either. It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed, and other ad-hominem angry insults that just fosters a macho, jockish atmosphere in Linux that has demonstrably alienated capable contributors. I'm sorry that Sarah Sharp is no longer maintaining the USB modules because of Linus's attitude, because I've never seen anyone else who knows as much about USB as she does.

stinos 9y ago

> acerbic and direct Isn't this just swearing? > the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. I'm not sure if I'm buying that. It's possible, sure but on the other hand: It's not because the other way (i.e. communicating in a nice way, without all the swearing and direct attacks - which is imo not the same as direct communication) hasn't been tried that somehow proves it won't work. E.g. I know repos where one maintainer is kind yet gets things done, and another one seems to have borrowed his communication style from Linus and gets less done. Because people just give up, being sick of being yelled at in an unpolite manner. Is it that hard to be respectful, even when disagreeing?

goialoq 9y ago
Do people who don't break users and lie about it get yelled at? Why are impolite words worse that actual harmful actions?
- tertius 9y ago
  Though I don't disagree with Linus' words. He could convey the same thoughts without swearing. I don't swear and I'm very capable of correcting people when they mess up.
  - Karunamon 9y ago
    Why is not swearing a virtue?
Karunamon 9y ago
This isn’t a “disagreement” talk in the op. This is a “you screwed up and then lied about it and now I have to work around your bad faith” talk. Different purposes.

jordigh 9y ago

Matt Mackall, another cranky kernel hacker, showed me a lot about how it's possible to say "no" to many eager changes that would have broken Mercurial and not be yelling obscenities about it. Linus is no role model. His imprecations are not what make Linux work.

colechristensen 9y ago
You can have lots of theories about what would or wouldn't make Linux work, but the facts on the ground are that Linux is wildly successful, and Linus behaves as he does. The latter has been an integral part of the former.
- zimpenfish 9y ago
  Correlation, however, is not causation. You can't say that Linux is wildly successful because Linus behaves as he does.
  - forapurpose 9y ago
    It's not even correlation. Correlation is: (if A then B) AND (if not A then not B) Every day, the rooster crows and the sun rises; that's not correlation. Periodically, Linus vocalizes in this way and Linux releases.
    - zimpenfish 9y ago
      > (if A then B) That's causation, surely. > Every day, the rooster crows and the sun rises; that's not correlation. Why not? That's literally (if A then B) according to your definition.
    - colechristensen 9y ago
      Linus created and then named Linux after himself. He runs it and has for decades. And we're trying to deny that his behavior is even correlated with Linux' success?
  - 9y ago

rthomas6 9y ago

Just because Linus is effective at communicating what he wants doesn't mean his way is the best way. Why wouldn't it be even better if he alienated contributors less?

toomuchtodo 9y ago
Because high quality kernel code is more important than not alienating contributors. If someone prefers softer conduct, they are free to fork the kernel and start their own efforts.
- tertius 9y ago
  > If someone prefers softer conduct The big issue I see people reacting to is profanity. You can be as hard on someone, given the nature of the infraction, without using profane language or denigrating someone. If they don't comply, threaten exactly what Linus threatened, no more commits will be accepted. While I don't disagree with Linus' right to speak as he does. He can be just as effective without the type of language he uses. Some people don't care about "foul language" some others clearly do...
  - Karunamon 9y ago
    How was the contributor in this case "denigrated"? There's a difference between calling someone stupid and calling their actions stupid. I've seen plenty of the latter from Linus, but never the former.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    I don't see the problem with profanity, different strokes for different folks.
    - jordigh 9y ago
      Profanity by itself isn't the problem. I don't have a problem with shit piss cunt fuck either. It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed, and other ad-hominem angry insults that just fosters a macho, jockish atmosphere in Linux that has demonstrably alienated capable contributors. I'm sorry that Sarah Sharp is no longer maintaining the USB modules because of Linus's attitude, because I've never seen anyone else who knows as much about USB as she does.