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> John Johansen will survive. We really need to stop excusing Linus's behaviour. Just because we may happen to agree with what he is saying doesn't mean we als

> John Johansen will survive. We really need to stop excusing Linus's behaviour. Just because we may happen to agree with what he is saying doesn't mean we also have to agree with how he is saying it.

Karunamon 9y ago
Disagree. It seems like Linus’ acerbic and direct means of communicating is the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. He’s also made his views on “why not be nicer” well known. People need to get over it - his project, his rules. Plenty of other projects out there to hack on if getting yelled at when you disengage your brain is too much. Most of which don’t have the obsession with not breaking stuff for the end user...
- stinos 9y ago
  > acerbic and direct Isn't this just swearing? > the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. I'm not sure if I'm buying that. It's possible, sure but on the other hand: It's not because the other way (i.e. communicating in a nice way, without all the swearing and direct attacks - which is imo not the same as direct communication) hasn't been tried that somehow proves it won't work. E.g. I know repos where one maintainer is kind yet gets things done, and another one seems to have borrowed his communication style from Linus and gets less done. Because people just give up, being sick of being yelled at in an unpolite manner. Is it that hard to be respectful, even when disagreeing?
  - goialoq 9y ago
    Do people who don't break users and lie about it get yelled at? Why are impolite words worse that actual harmful actions?
    - tertius 9y ago
      Though I don't disagree with Linus' words. He could convey the same thoughts without swearing. I don't swear and I'm very capable of correcting people when they mess up.
      - Karunamon 9y ago
        Why is not swearing a virtue?
  - Karunamon 9y ago
    This isn’t a “disagreement” talk in the op. This is a “you screwed up and then lied about it and now I have to work around your bad faith” talk. Different purposes.
- jordigh 9y ago
  Matt Mackall, another cranky kernel hacker, showed me a lot about how it's possible to say "no" to many eager changes that would have broken Mercurial and not be yelling obscenities about it. Linus is no role model. His imprecations are not what make Linux work.
  - colechristensen 9y ago
    You can have lots of theories about what would or wouldn't make Linux work, but the facts on the ground are that Linux is wildly successful, and Linus behaves as he does. The latter has been an integral part of the former.
    - zimpenfish 9y ago
      Correlation, however, is not causation. You can't say that Linux is wildly successful because Linus behaves as he does.
      - forapurpose 9y ago
        It's not even correlation. Correlation is: (if A then B) AND (if not A then not B) Every day, the rooster crows and the sun rises; that's not correlation. Periodically, Linus vocalizes in this way and Linux releases.
        zimpenfish 9y ago
        > (if A then B) That's causation, surely. > Every day, the rooster crows and the sun rises; that's not correlation. Why not? That's literally (if A then B) according to your definition.
        colechristensen 9y ago
        Linus created and then named Linux after himself. He runs it and has for decades. And we're trying to deny that his behavior is even correlated with Linux' success?
      - 9y ago
- rthomas6 9y ago
  Just because Linus is effective at communicating what he wants doesn't mean his way is the best way. Why wouldn't it be even better if he alienated contributors less?
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    Because high quality kernel code is more important than not alienating contributors. If someone prefers softer conduct, they are free to fork the kernel and start their own efforts.
    - tertius 9y ago
      > If someone prefers softer conduct The big issue I see people reacting to is profanity. You can be as hard on someone, given the nature of the infraction, without using profane language or denigrating someone. If they don't comply, threaten exactly what Linus threatened, no more commits will be accepted. While I don't disagree with Linus' right to speak as he does. He can be just as effective without the type of language he uses. Some people don't care about "foul language" some others clearly do...
      - Karunamon 9y ago
        How was the contributor in this case "denigrated"? There's a difference between calling someone stupid and calling their actions stupid. I've seen plenty of the latter from Linus, but never the former.
      - toomuchtodo 9y ago
        I don't see the problem with profanity, different strokes for different folks.
        jordigh 9y ago
        Profanity by itself isn't the problem. I don't have a problem with shit piss cunt fuck either. It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed, and other ad-hominem angry insults that just fosters a macho, jockish atmosphere in Linux that has demonstrably alienated capable contributors. I'm sorry that Sarah Sharp is no longer maintaining the USB modules because of Linus's attitude, because I've never seen anyone else who knows as much about USB as she does.
kadenshep 9y ago
I agree with how he's saying it. He's being honest. He's letting you know where he stands and what the rule is, without any kind of hidden message or room for interpretation. The other guy? Not being so honest.
- lightedman 9y ago
  He's being stupid, using words he doesn't understand (He already failed in the usage of the word 'regression.') He's throwing a childish tantrum and THAT is the primary reason I won't touch Linux (well that and I can hardlock any Linux system by making a 4kb encrypted RAMDisk, and it's been left unfixed for years, allowing me to find dozens of nice memory issues, [especially with the buffer cache,] and most of these issues are ELEMENTARY-GRADE MISTAKES, which matches very well with Linus' elementary school attitude.)
  - ryanx435 9y ago
    I'm willing to bet my entire life savings that Linus understands the meaning of the word regression in this context better than you.
    - lightedman 9y ago
      Having read the entire mailing list thread, no, he is NOT using the word correctly. I suggest you read the entire thread. Regression in the case of code indicates this problem was there before, fixed, and resurfaced. Simply breaking user space is not a regression. It is simply breaking things and nothing more unless this problem occurred once before.
      - newen 9y ago
        As it's used almost everywhere in coding circles, regression means a patch that made things worse than it was before. No implication of the worse state being there before.
  - kadenshep 9y ago
angrygoat 9y ago
> We really need to stop excusing Linus's behaviour. Just because we may happen to agree with what he is saying doesn't mean we also have to agree with how he is saying it. I couldn't agree more. More than ten years ago I was involved in the Monotone project. It was a VCS which was an ancestor to Git and a contemporary of Mercurial. That project really prioritised good conduct, and having a well functioning community. It was a huge awakening for me. Insisting, gently, upon respectful and kind behaviour made it a project I'm proud to have been a part of. I'm still grateful to graydon, pcwalton and all the other folks that made it such a great project to be involved with. In free software we need more leaders like that, who set the right example.
- busterarm 9y ago
  How would you rate the downstream impact of delivery failures in this project? Respect and kindness are great virtues when you're shipping widgets. If your product failing means that end-users are going to physically suffer and/or die, I don't think they're going to care one bit about those virtues or respond in kind though. I'm not saying you can't run a big project without kindness and respect, but I'm saying that's way down the list of importance vs not harming your users. Whatever it takes to get that chief goal accomplished needs to be done. Linus' approach has clearly been working for decades now...and it especially is in this instance.
goialoq 9y ago
Everyone excused Johansen's behavior -- which broke Linux for users, until Linus stepped in and told Johansen to stop making excuses for hurting users. Johansen apologized for his mistake. Sniping at the team -- the people doing actual work -- from the sidelines is inappropriate
TallGuyShort 9y ago
He has previously been unnecessarily insulting, which I don't excuse, but in this case someone caused a problem, and after 3 weeks still does not understand how serious a problem it is. He's addressing it bluntly because that is what is required. He's not being unreasonable.
- res0nat0r 9y ago
  If it was anyone else we'd be calling them an utter asshole and then citing them as reasons why Silicon Valley has a reputation for <insert bad behaviour here>. Linus is still a dick and it isn't funny, refreshing or cool.
  - vorpalhex 9y ago
    Nope. This is a valid case to call someone out. Not just for Linus, but for anyone.
    - res0nat0r 9y ago
      Yep. Not by cussing at them or raging like a toddler. If this was some Joe Schmo at a random company he'd be fired for treating co-workers like that. Since it's Linus it's hero worship.
      - TallGuyShort 9y ago
        And if an employee pushed for 3 weeks ignoring the company's leader's best-known rule for not screwing over customers - what does that say about the employee? How would you deal with it if they haven't listened to anyone else? It's like you're not even reading anyone's responses to understand why they disagree with you...
      - alien_at_work 9y ago
        Not sure where you're working but in every US company I've ever worked for management behaved like Linus and worse and it wasn't them getting fired.
alien_at_work 9y ago
No, what we need to do is stop listening to fragile cry babies. If you ever work for a real company with real deadlines you'll get a lot worse than what he gave. And he only responded this way after 3 weeks of unacceptable behavior. If he blew up out of nowhere after the very first report of a potential problem before it was even confirmed, that would be a different story (though that's something that probably happens in real companies every day).
- ForHackernews 9y ago
  > If you ever work for a real company with real deadlines you'll get a lot worse than what he gave. I think you must have worked for some horribly unprofessional companies. I've worked places with tight deadlines before, but berating your colleagues or employees with profanity is just ridiculous. I would walk out on the spot if anyone spoke to me the way Linus did in that email.
  - alien_at_work 9y ago
    >I think you must have worked for some horribly unprofessional companies. I have for sure, but the worst of those companies was better than fortune 5 (if I said exactly, you'd know which company), so while primitive they obviously manage to get results that coddling hasn't. EDIT: And as for walking out, if I were your manager and you broke customer systems and made excuses for 3 weeks about it I wouldn't be yelling at you. I'd be firing you.
    - ForHackernews 9y ago
      Firing somebody for lousy performance & making excuses is an entirely correct and professional response. Berating and profanely insulting them is not.
      - xelxebar 9y ago
        That sounds like a horrendously selfish attitude. The problem was fixed; nobody was harmed; lessons were learned. The sum total of effect of this "Linus tirade" seems overwhelmingly positive. But just because he didn't conform to your arbitrary standards, you write him off? Linus is more humanist in this case than your policy apparently allows.
adamc 9y ago
I've seen messages where I thought he went over the top (personal attacks), but this seemed mostly focused on the issue at hand -- didn't bother me. (Not that it would matter if it did.)
musage 9y ago
How about stopping to try to throw wrenches into what he's doing? It's not a hard concept, don't break user space under no circumstances ever, if you do it's a bug. If you cannot understand and know this by heart, don't even fire up your editor, you are not wanted in Linux kernel development. Fork it and PROVE he is not doing it the correct way by spending weeks and months and years of arguing with people who simply will not stop arguing, because you can't tell them to fuck off. This is the Sphinx asking you an easy question, and if you don't simply give the correct answer she helpfully provided in advance, you get burned to ash. You don't get to stand there arguing, and you certainly don't pass through. Instead complaining about it while someone is still doing it, learn to become so principled where it matters for the time when he can't do it anymore. That's infinitely more important than not swearing if you're older than 6. Have you looked around the world you're living in? Plenty of nuts people with plenty of vested interests. Plenty of weak people feeding them. If "not hurting feelings" is a priority to you, you are a hostage to those who will fake feelings until the cows come home. In turn you do not get to hold those hostage who see through it. How much of what people use, how much profit does Linux enable? But oh no, the bad man is swearing. Unbelievable. Uninstall everything that has traces of it in it, but spare me your advice on what I need to "stop excusing". There is no aggregate by the way, "we" doesn't have to agree with anything because it doesn't exist. I have my stance, you don't even propose yours.
abritinthebay 9y ago
Agreed but I don't think that it's going to happen. We tend to excuse people for being bratty assholes when they're smart and correct. Which Linus was here. Doesn't make it right but it's not just a Linus problem (I mean, generally), it's a people problem.
pdkl95 9y ago
What behavior? Linus's comments were carefully directed at the bad behavior that needed to be fixed. I don't see any personal attacks. Linus is a manager, and part of being a manager includes putting your foot down when someone is causing problems. Ideally, the situation should be handled directly and unambiguously ("The thing you're doing is incorrect and causing problems. Stop doing that.") before the problems become worse. > trying to shift the regressions somewhere else is bogus SHIT. That's accurate and specifically points to the unacceptable behavior that needs to be fixed. Linus's "WE DON'T BREAK USERSPACE. EVER." policy is well known, documented, and mentioned frequently. It's reasonable to expect anyone submitting patches to understand this, which makes trying to shift the blame elsewhere... well... "bogus SHIT", regardless of the specific words you use to describe it. > I will stop pulling apparmor requests until the people involved understand how kernel development is done. Note that Linus is specifically indicating that this is fixable. Given John Johansen's very commendable apology (see link in grandparent comment), it looks like the message was understood. I suspect this will work out much better in the future. -- edit: Diluting language to make it "nicer" can remove important information. See: "How a plan becomes policy" https://funnyshit.com.au/the_plan.html https://funnyshit.com.au/the_plan.html
- soundwave106 9y ago
  "Seriously, it's the kind of garbage that makes me think your opinion and your code cannot be relied on" is, quite bluntly, a personal attack, directly commenting on an entire developer's code history and knowledge based on one single issue. This could be worded a lot better. The profanity is also unnecessary. The rule of thumb I've seen in your typical management oriented business books ( eg, your books / training like Crucial Conversations: https://www.vitalsmarts.com/crucial-conversations-training/ https://www.vitalsmarts.com/crucial-conversations-training/ ) is to be "persuasive, not abrasive" as that site says. The issue with being abrasive is that one way people might react is by instinctively attacking back -- no matter how technically correct you are, f-bombs and personal attacks might tempt others to throw counterpoint f-bombs and personal attacks back. Another is that repeated behavior along these lines might drive away some people who would rather not see profanity and anger in their mailbox. Everyone loses their temper occasionally, and John Johansen reacted in the way you should to someone who loses their temper. Unfortunately, the Linux community as a whole has a reputation in some circles for being overly "hostile" and "toxic". Linus himself has this reputation. How much this reputation dents Linux contribution and usage isn't known, but I doubt anyone can say that this is a positive.
notyourday 9y ago
> We really need to stop excusing Linus's behaviour. Just because we may happen to agree with what he is saying doesn't mean we also have to agree with how he is saying it. We need more behavior like this. The reason why the modern software tend to be a pile of garbage is because it is managed like popularity contest of the project managers instead of people who want to get shit done.

Karunamon 9y ago

Disagree. It seems like Linus’ acerbic and direct means of communicating is the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. He’s also made his views on “why not be nicer” well known. People need to get over it - his project, his rules. Plenty of other projects out there to hack on if getting yelled at when you disengage your brain is too much. Most of which don’t have the obsession with not breaking stuff for the end user...

stinos 9y ago
> acerbic and direct Isn't this just swearing? > the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. I'm not sure if I'm buying that. It's possible, sure but on the other hand: It's not because the other way (i.e. communicating in a nice way, without all the swearing and direct attacks - which is imo not the same as direct communication) hasn't been tried that somehow proves it won't work. E.g. I know repos where one maintainer is kind yet gets things done, and another one seems to have borrowed his communication style from Linus and gets less done. Because people just give up, being sick of being yelled at in an unpolite manner. Is it that hard to be respectful, even when disagreeing?
- goialoq 9y ago
  Do people who don't break users and lie about it get yelled at? Why are impolite words worse that actual harmful actions?
  - tertius 9y ago
    Though I don't disagree with Linus' words. He could convey the same thoughts without swearing. I don't swear and I'm very capable of correcting people when they mess up.
    - Karunamon 9y ago
      Why is not swearing a virtue?
- Karunamon 9y ago
  This isn’t a “disagreement” talk in the op. This is a “you screwed up and then lied about it and now I have to work around your bad faith” talk. Different purposes.
jordigh 9y ago
Matt Mackall, another cranky kernel hacker, showed me a lot about how it's possible to say "no" to many eager changes that would have broken Mercurial and not be yelling obscenities about it. Linus is no role model. His imprecations are not what make Linux work.
- colechristensen 9y ago
  You can have lots of theories about what would or wouldn't make Linux work, but the facts on the ground are that Linux is wildly successful, and Linus behaves as he does. The latter has been an integral part of the former.
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    Correlation, however, is not causation. You can't say that Linux is wildly successful because Linus behaves as he does.
    - forapurpose 9y ago
      It's not even correlation. Correlation is: (if A then B) AND (if not A then not B) Every day, the rooster crows and the sun rises; that's not correlation. Periodically, Linus vocalizes in this way and Linux releases.
      - zimpenfish 9y ago
        > (if A then B) That's causation, surely. > Every day, the rooster crows and the sun rises; that's not correlation. Why not? That's literally (if A then B) according to your definition.
      - colechristensen 9y ago
        Linus created and then named Linux after himself. He runs it and has for decades. And we're trying to deny that his behavior is even correlated with Linux' success?
    - 9y ago
rthomas6 9y ago
Just because Linus is effective at communicating what he wants doesn't mean his way is the best way. Why wouldn't it be even better if he alienated contributors less?
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  Because high quality kernel code is more important than not alienating contributors. If someone prefers softer conduct, they are free to fork the kernel and start their own efforts.
  - tertius 9y ago
    > If someone prefers softer conduct The big issue I see people reacting to is profanity. You can be as hard on someone, given the nature of the infraction, without using profane language or denigrating someone. If they don't comply, threaten exactly what Linus threatened, no more commits will be accepted. While I don't disagree with Linus' right to speak as he does. He can be just as effective without the type of language he uses. Some people don't care about "foul language" some others clearly do...
    - Karunamon 9y ago
      How was the contributor in this case "denigrated"? There's a difference between calling someone stupid and calling their actions stupid. I've seen plenty of the latter from Linus, but never the former.
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      I don't see the problem with profanity, different strokes for different folks.
      - jordigh 9y ago
        Profanity by itself isn't the problem. I don't have a problem with shit piss cunt fuck either. It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed, and other ad-hominem angry insults that just fosters a macho, jockish atmosphere in Linux that has demonstrably alienated capable contributors. I'm sorry that Sarah Sharp is no longer maintaining the USB modules because of Linus's attitude, because I've never seen anyone else who knows as much about USB as she does.

kadenshep 9y ago

I agree with how he's saying it. He's being honest. He's letting you know where he stands and what the rule is, without any kind of hidden message or room for interpretation. The other guy? Not being so honest.

lightedman 9y ago
He's being stupid, using words he doesn't understand (He already failed in the usage of the word 'regression.') He's throwing a childish tantrum and THAT is the primary reason I won't touch Linux (well that and I can hardlock any Linux system by making a 4kb encrypted RAMDisk, and it's been left unfixed for years, allowing me to find dozens of nice memory issues, [especially with the buffer cache,] and most of these issues are ELEMENTARY-GRADE MISTAKES, which matches very well with Linus' elementary school attitude.)
- ryanx435 9y ago
  I'm willing to bet my entire life savings that Linus understands the meaning of the word regression in this context better than you.
  - lightedman 9y ago
    Having read the entire mailing list thread, no, he is NOT using the word correctly. I suggest you read the entire thread. Regression in the case of code indicates this problem was there before, fixed, and resurfaced. Simply breaking user space is not a regression. It is simply breaking things and nothing more unless this problem occurred once before.
    - newen 9y ago
      As it's used almost everywhere in coding circles, regression means a patch that made things worse than it was before. No implication of the worse state being there before.
- kadenshep 9y ago

angrygoat 9y ago

> We really need to stop excusing Linus's behaviour. Just because we may happen to agree with what he is saying doesn't mean we also have to agree with how he is saying it. I couldn't agree more. More than ten years ago I was involved in the Monotone project. It was a VCS which was an ancestor to Git and a contemporary of Mercurial. That project really prioritised good conduct, and having a well functioning community. It was a huge awakening for me. Insisting, gently, upon respectful and kind behaviour made it a project I'm proud to have been a part of. I'm still grateful to graydon, pcwalton and all the other folks that made it such a great project to be involved with. In free software we need more leaders like that, who set the right example.

busterarm 9y ago
How would you rate the downstream impact of delivery failures in this project? Respect and kindness are great virtues when you're shipping widgets. If your product failing means that end-users are going to physically suffer and/or die, I don't think they're going to care one bit about those virtues or respond in kind though. I'm not saying you can't run a big project without kindness and respect, but I'm saying that's way down the list of importance vs not harming your users. Whatever it takes to get that chief goal accomplished needs to be done. Linus' approach has clearly been working for decades now...and it especially is in this instance.

goialoq 9y ago

Everyone excused Johansen's behavior -- which broke Linux for users, until Linus stepped in and told Johansen to stop making excuses for hurting users. Johansen apologized for his mistake. Sniping at the team -- the people doing actual work -- from the sidelines is inappropriate

TallGuyShort 9y ago

He has previously been unnecessarily insulting, which I don't excuse, but in this case someone caused a problem, and after 3 weeks still does not understand how serious a problem it is. He's addressing it bluntly because that is what is required. He's not being unreasonable.

res0nat0r 9y ago
If it was anyone else we'd be calling them an utter asshole and then citing them as reasons why Silicon Valley has a reputation for <insert bad behaviour here>. Linus is still a dick and it isn't funny, refreshing or cool.
- vorpalhex 9y ago
  Nope. This is a valid case to call someone out. Not just for Linus, but for anyone.
  - res0nat0r 9y ago
    Yep. Not by cussing at them or raging like a toddler. If this was some Joe Schmo at a random company he'd be fired for treating co-workers like that. Since it's Linus it's hero worship.
    - TallGuyShort 9y ago
      And if an employee pushed for 3 weeks ignoring the company's leader's best-known rule for not screwing over customers - what does that say about the employee? How would you deal with it if they haven't listened to anyone else? It's like you're not even reading anyone's responses to understand why they disagree with you...
    - alien_at_work 9y ago
      Not sure where you're working but in every US company I've ever worked for management behaved like Linus and worse and it wasn't them getting fired.

alien_at_work 9y ago

No, what we need to do is stop listening to fragile cry babies. If you ever work for a real company with real deadlines you'll get a lot worse than what he gave. And he only responded this way after 3 weeks of unacceptable behavior. If he blew up out of nowhere after the very first report of a potential problem before it was even confirmed, that would be a different story (though that's something that probably happens in real companies every day).

ForHackernews 9y ago
> If you ever work for a real company with real deadlines you'll get a lot worse than what he gave. I think you must have worked for some horribly unprofessional companies. I've worked places with tight deadlines before, but berating your colleagues or employees with profanity is just ridiculous. I would walk out on the spot if anyone spoke to me the way Linus did in that email.
- alien_at_work 9y ago
  >I think you must have worked for some horribly unprofessional companies. I have for sure, but the worst of those companies was better than fortune 5 (if I said exactly, you'd know which company), so while primitive they obviously manage to get results that coddling hasn't. EDIT: And as for walking out, if I were your manager and you broke customer systems and made excuses for 3 weeks about it I wouldn't be yelling at you. I'd be firing you.
  - ForHackernews 9y ago
    Firing somebody for lousy performance & making excuses is an entirely correct and professional response. Berating and profanely insulting them is not.
    - xelxebar 9y ago
      That sounds like a horrendously selfish attitude. The problem was fixed; nobody was harmed; lessons were learned. The sum total of effect of this "Linus tirade" seems overwhelmingly positive. But just because he didn't conform to your arbitrary standards, you write him off? Linus is more humanist in this case than your policy apparently allows.

adamc 9y ago

I've seen messages where I thought he went over the top (personal attacks), but this seemed mostly focused on the issue at hand -- didn't bother me. (Not that it would matter if it did.)

musage 9y ago

How about stopping to try to throw wrenches into what he's doing? It's not a hard concept, don't break user space under no circumstances ever, if you do it's a bug. If you cannot understand and know this by heart, don't even fire up your editor, you are not wanted in Linux kernel development. Fork it and PROVE he is not doing it the correct way by spending weeks and months and years of arguing with people who simply will not stop arguing, because you can't tell them to fuck off. This is the Sphinx asking you an easy question, and if you don't simply give the correct answer she helpfully provided in advance, you get burned to ash. You don't get to stand there arguing, and you certainly don't pass through. Instead complaining about it while someone is still doing it, learn to become so principled where it matters for the time when he can't do it anymore. That's infinitely more important than not swearing if you're older than 6. Have you looked around the world you're living in? Plenty of nuts people with plenty of vested interests. Plenty of weak people feeding them. If "not hurting feelings" is a priority to you, you are a hostage to those who will fake feelings until the cows come home. In turn you do not get to hold those hostage who see through it. How much of what people use, how much profit does Linux enable? But oh no, the bad man is swearing. Unbelievable. Uninstall everything that has traces of it in it, but spare me your advice on what I need to "stop excusing". There is no aggregate by the way, "we" doesn't have to agree with anything because it doesn't exist. I have my stance, you don't even propose yours.

abritinthebay 9y ago

Agreed but I don't think that it's going to happen. We tend to excuse people for being bratty assholes when they're smart and correct. Which Linus was here. Doesn't make it right but it's not just a Linus problem (I mean, generally), it's a people problem.

pdkl95 9y ago

What behavior? Linus's comments were carefully directed at the bad behavior that needed to be fixed. I don't see any personal attacks. Linus is a manager, and part of being a manager includes putting your foot down when someone is causing problems. Ideally, the situation should be handled directly and unambiguously ("The thing you're doing is incorrect and causing problems. Stop doing that.") before the problems become worse. > trying to shift the regressions somewhere else is bogus SHIT. That's accurate and specifically points to the unacceptable behavior that needs to be fixed. Linus's "WE DON'T BREAK USERSPACE. EVER." policy is well known, documented, and mentioned frequently. It's reasonable to expect anyone submitting patches to understand this, which makes trying to shift the blame elsewhere... well... "bogus SHIT", regardless of the specific words you use to describe it. > I will stop pulling apparmor requests until the people involved understand how kernel development is done. Note that Linus is specifically indicating that this is fixable. Given John Johansen's very commendable apology (see link in grandparent comment), it looks like the message was understood. I suspect this will work out much better in the future. -- edit: Diluting language to make it "nicer" can remove important information. See: "How a plan becomes policy" https://funnyshit.com.au/the_plan.html https://funnyshit.com.au/the_plan.html

soundwave106 9y ago
"Seriously, it's the kind of garbage that makes me think your opinion and your code cannot be relied on" is, quite bluntly, a personal attack, directly commenting on an entire developer's code history and knowledge based on one single issue. This could be worded a lot better. The profanity is also unnecessary. The rule of thumb I've seen in your typical management oriented business books ( eg, your books / training like Crucial Conversations: https://www.vitalsmarts.com/crucial-conversations-training/ https://www.vitalsmarts.com/crucial-conversations-training/ ) is to be "persuasive, not abrasive" as that site says. The issue with being abrasive is that one way people might react is by instinctively attacking back -- no matter how technically correct you are, f-bombs and personal attacks might tempt others to throw counterpoint f-bombs and personal attacks back. Another is that repeated behavior along these lines might drive away some people who would rather not see profanity and anger in their mailbox. Everyone loses their temper occasionally, and John Johansen reacted in the way you should to someone who loses their temper. Unfortunately, the Linux community as a whole has a reputation in some circles for being overly "hostile" and "toxic". Linus himself has this reputation. How much this reputation dents Linux contribution and usage isn't known, but I doubt anyone can say that this is a positive.

notyourday 9y ago

> We really need to stop excusing Linus's behaviour. Just because we may happen to agree with what he is saying doesn't mean we also have to agree with how he is saying it. We need more behavior like this. The reason why the modern software tend to be a pile of garbage is because it is managed like popularity contest of the project managers instead of people who want to get shit done.