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John Johansen will survive. Linus has made it incredibly damn clear what "no user space regressions ever" mean. See f.e the similar rant from 2012: https://lkml

John Johansen will survive. Linus has made it incredibly damn clear what "no user space regressions ever" mean. See f.e the similar rant from 2012: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75 https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75 And it is his kernel so it is his rules. John Johansen admitted he messed up (http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02539.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02539.html) and promised to handle things better in the future so all is well.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jancsika 9y ago
It's sad that often the only thing that stops a developer from spinning out more yarns of rationalization is Linus coming in and barking the first rule of kernel development at them. It's like Fight Club, except instead of fighting all the characters keep asking Brad Pitt's character why they can't perform a one-man show on Broadway about fight club.
leeoniya 9y ago
> Linus has made it incredibly damn clear what "no user space regressions ever" mean out of curiosity, how does a policy like this translate to microkernel OSes (e.g. Redox) where most everything runs in userspace?
- olewhalehunter 9y ago
  shhh just get out the popcorn and enjoy the rantings of an egomaniac who wrote a glorified DOS extender for an outdated time-sharing system
  - sctb 9y ago
    Let's not join in with rantings of our own? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- city41 9y ago
  Does it need to? This is the rule for Linux development. Other kernels need not follow it if it doesn’t make sense.
  - ams6110 9y ago
    Yes, exactly. Linus does things his way. Others (OpenBSD and maybe other BSDs for example) view the kernel + userland as a complete release and you upgrade everything together.
- tonysdg 9y ago
  I've never programmed a microkernel OS (and I've only done minimal Linux kernel programming), but I would assume it's even _more_ important, as a single change would impact almost every component of the system.
- invokestatic 9y ago
  Microkernels still need syscalls for usermode to interface with, so it is just as important. Kernels exist to serve userspace, not the other way around. Though, given the relative immaturity of Redox I assume this is less important compared to Linux.
  - leeoniya 9y ago
    i think Redox explicitly tries to limit the syscall exposure as well relative to linux. (dozens vs hundreds) https://doc.redox-os.org/book/introduction/how_redox_compares_to_other_operating_systems.html https://doc.redox-os.org/book/introduction/how_redox_compare...
sytse 9y ago
Great links. To make Linus his live easier I've made a website on http://www.firstruleofkerneldevelopment.com/ http://www.firstruleofkerneldevelopment.com/ with those links so he can just reply with: "See www.firstruleofkerneldevelopment.com" instead of posting a rant.
- chrisper 9y ago
  He is never going to do that unless he owned the domain. He is not going to point to websites that could potentially change and show ads, malware or whatever.
  - sytse 9y ago
    If that is the case and if he's interested I would be happy to transfer the domain to him.
  - acidreflux 9y ago
    Do you understand how jokes work or...?
- goialoq 9y ago
  Was there a "first rule" before the 2012 rant, or was it invented in that email thread?
  - sushibowl 9y ago
    Linus has said earlier that this rule has been in place pretty much since day 1 (in a google+ thread here: https://plus.google.com/115250422803614415116/posts/hMT5kW8LKJk https://plus.google.com/115250422803614415116/posts/hMT5kW8L...), although he's made it much more explicit than it was at first.
jordigh 9y ago
> John Johansen will survive. We really need to stop excusing Linus's behaviour. Just because we may happen to agree with what he is saying doesn't mean we also have to agree with how he is saying it.
- Karunamon 9y ago
  Disagree. It seems like Linus’ acerbic and direct means of communicating is the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. He’s also made his views on “why not be nicer” well known. People need to get over it - his project, his rules. Plenty of other projects out there to hack on if getting yelled at when you disengage your brain is too much. Most of which don’t have the obsession with not breaking stuff for the end user...
  - stinos 9y ago
    > acerbic and direct Isn't this just swearing? > the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. I'm not sure if I'm buying that. It's possible, sure but on the other hand: It's not because the other way (i.e. communicating in a nice way, without all the swearing and direct attacks - which is imo not the same as direct communication) hasn't been tried that somehow proves it won't work. E.g. I know repos where one maintainer is kind yet gets things done, and another one seems to have borrowed his communication style from Linus and gets less done. Because people just give up, being sick of being yelled at in an unpolite manner. Is it that hard to be respectful, even when disagreeing?
    - goialoq 9y ago
      Do people who don't break users and lie about it get yelled at? Why are impolite words worse that actual harmful actions?
      - tertius 9y ago
        Though I don't disagree with Linus' words. He could convey the same thoughts without swearing. I don't swear and I'm very capable of correcting people when they mess up.
lightedman 9y ago
"Linus has made it incredibly damn clear what "no user space regressions ever" mean." Absolute shame he doesn't even know the basic definition of 'regression' and uses the word incorrectly in every way. Breaking shit is simply breaking shit. It's not a regression unless something was broken first, then fixed, then the SAME ISSUE comes back in a later code change.
- ams6110 9y ago
  > basic definition of 'regression' According to Linus: THE KERNEL NOT GIVING THE SAME END RESULT WITH THE SAME USER SPACE According to Wikipedia: A software regression is a software bug that makes a feature stop functioning as intended after a certain event (for example, a system upgrade, system patching or a change to daylight saving time). Seems like the two definitions are similar. There's no requirement that the defect be one that was seen earlier, fixed, and then reappears.
- majewsky 9y ago
  Different people have different definitions of things all the time, and yet we get on with our lives.
- goialoq 9y ago
  You've posted your incorrect interpretation of 'regression' twice. Please stop. Breaking something that used to work is a regression.
- murkle 9y ago
  nope, that would be a re-regression :)
- justabystander 9y ago
  > It's not a regression unless something was broken first, then fixed, then the SAME ISSUE comes back in a later code change. No, it's when a change results in unintentional behavior that breaks previously supported scenarios. You might want to double-check your definition. I think you're actually referring to a recurring issue.
taneq 9y ago
> http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02539.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02539.html Wow. Now that's how you do an apology. If anything my confidence in this guy is increased.
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  Simple. Contrite. To the point. No excuses, just solutions. Yeah, this is a _very_ professional response to a (typical for Linus tbh) very emotional (but correct) post that could be easy to react emotionally to.
  - mercer 9y ago
    Fair point, but I'm coming round to the idea that emotional 'anger' might be a very effective tool to use when in charge of things. It seems well applied in this case.
    - abritinthebay 9y ago
      It can be, absolutely. Emotions are an intensifying tool. There are ways to use that language without being a prick about it though. Linus does not have that ability.
    - davidw 9y ago
      The problem is that everyone can be an asshole, but most of us are not so consistently correct on a subject as Linus is.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

jancsika 9y ago

It's sad that often the only thing that stops a developer from spinning out more yarns of rationalization is Linus coming in and barking the first rule of kernel development at them. It's like Fight Club, except instead of fighting all the characters keep asking Brad Pitt's character why they can't perform a one-man show on Broadway about fight club.

leeoniya 9y ago

> Linus has made it incredibly damn clear what "no user space regressions ever" mean out of curiosity, how does a policy like this translate to microkernel OSes (e.g. Redox) where most everything runs in userspace?

olewhalehunter 9y ago
shhh just get out the popcorn and enjoy the rantings of an egomaniac who wrote a glorified DOS extender for an outdated time-sharing system
- sctb 9y ago
  Let's not join in with rantings of our own? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
city41 9y ago
Does it need to? This is the rule for Linux development. Other kernels need not follow it if it doesn’t make sense.
- ams6110 9y ago
  Yes, exactly. Linus does things his way. Others (OpenBSD and maybe other BSDs for example) view the kernel + userland as a complete release and you upgrade everything together.
tonysdg 9y ago
I've never programmed a microkernel OS (and I've only done minimal Linux kernel programming), but I would assume it's even _more_ important, as a single change would impact almost every component of the system.
invokestatic 9y ago
Microkernels still need syscalls for usermode to interface with, so it is just as important. Kernels exist to serve userspace, not the other way around. Though, given the relative immaturity of Redox I assume this is less important compared to Linux.
- leeoniya 9y ago
  i think Redox explicitly tries to limit the syscall exposure as well relative to linux. (dozens vs hundreds) https://doc.redox-os.org/book/introduction/how_redox_compares_to_other_operating_systems.html https://doc.redox-os.org/book/introduction/how_redox_compare...

sytse 9y ago

Great links. To make Linus his live easier I've made a website on http://www.firstruleofkerneldevelopment.com/ http://www.firstruleofkerneldevelopment.com/ with those links so he can just reply with: "See www.firstruleofkerneldevelopment.com" instead of posting a rant.

chrisper 9y ago
He is never going to do that unless he owned the domain. He is not going to point to websites that could potentially change and show ads, malware or whatever.
- sytse 9y ago
  If that is the case and if he's interested I would be happy to transfer the domain to him.
- acidreflux 9y ago
  Do you understand how jokes work or...?
goialoq 9y ago
Was there a "first rule" before the 2012 rant, or was it invented in that email thread?
- sushibowl 9y ago
  Linus has said earlier that this rule has been in place pretty much since day 1 (in a google+ thread here: https://plus.google.com/115250422803614415116/posts/hMT5kW8LKJk https://plus.google.com/115250422803614415116/posts/hMT5kW8L...), although he's made it much more explicit than it was at first.

jordigh 9y ago

> John Johansen will survive. We really need to stop excusing Linus's behaviour. Just because we may happen to agree with what he is saying doesn't mean we also have to agree with how he is saying it.

Karunamon 9y ago
Disagree. It seems like Linus’ acerbic and direct means of communicating is the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. He’s also made his views on “why not be nicer” well known. People need to get over it - his project, his rules. Plenty of other projects out there to hack on if getting yelled at when you disengage your brain is too much. Most of which don’t have the obsession with not breaking stuff for the end user...
- stinos 9y ago
  > acerbic and direct Isn't this just swearing? > the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. I'm not sure if I'm buying that. It's possible, sure but on the other hand: It's not because the other way (i.e. communicating in a nice way, without all the swearing and direct attacks - which is imo not the same as direct communication) hasn't been tried that somehow proves it won't work. E.g. I know repos where one maintainer is kind yet gets things done, and another one seems to have borrowed his communication style from Linus and gets less done. Because people just give up, being sick of being yelled at in an unpolite manner. Is it that hard to be respectful, even when disagreeing?
  - goialoq 9y ago
    Do people who don't break users and lie about it get yelled at? Why are impolite words worse that actual harmful actions?
    - tertius 9y ago
      Though I don't disagree with Linus' words. He could convey the same thoughts without swearing. I don't swear and I'm very capable of correcting people when they mess up.

lightedman 9y ago

"Linus has made it incredibly damn clear what "no user space regressions ever" mean." Absolute shame he doesn't even know the basic definition of 'regression' and uses the word incorrectly in every way. Breaking shit is simply breaking shit. It's not a regression unless something was broken first, then fixed, then the SAME ISSUE comes back in a later code change.

ams6110 9y ago
> basic definition of 'regression' According to Linus: THE KERNEL NOT GIVING THE SAME END RESULT WITH THE SAME USER SPACE According to Wikipedia: A software regression is a software bug that makes a feature stop functioning as intended after a certain event (for example, a system upgrade, system patching or a change to daylight saving time). Seems like the two definitions are similar. There's no requirement that the defect be one that was seen earlier, fixed, and then reappears.
majewsky 9y ago
Different people have different definitions of things all the time, and yet we get on with our lives.
goialoq 9y ago
You've posted your incorrect interpretation of 'regression' twice. Please stop. Breaking something that used to work is a regression.
murkle 9y ago
nope, that would be a re-regression :)
justabystander 9y ago
> It's not a regression unless something was broken first, then fixed, then the SAME ISSUE comes back in a later code change. No, it's when a change results in unintentional behavior that breaks previously supported scenarios. You might want to double-check your definition. I think you're actually referring to a recurring issue.

taneq 9y ago

> http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02539.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02539.html Wow. Now that's how you do an apology. If anything my confidence in this guy is increased.

abritinthebay 9y ago
Simple. Contrite. To the point. No excuses, just solutions. Yeah, this is a _very_ professional response to a (typical for Linus tbh) very emotional (but correct) post that could be easy to react emotionally to.
- mercer 9y ago
  Fair point, but I'm coming round to the idea that emotional 'anger' might be a very effective tool to use when in charge of things. It seems well applied in this case.
  - abritinthebay 9y ago
    It can be, absolutely. Emotions are an intensifying tool. There are ways to use that language without being a prick about it though. Linus does not have that ability.
  - davidw 9y ago
    The problem is that everyone can be an asshole, but most of us are not so consistently correct on a subject as Linus is.