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Company gives non-smokers six days holiday to compensate for cigarette breaks

• Clubber 9y ago
  Based on what we know about staying seated for hours a day, it would be more beneficial to allow non-smokers stand up and walk around breaks every hour rather than 6 days off.
  • humanrebar 9y ago
    Is it? That may be true, but I read about new (to me) contradictory research in this area a lot. I feel the science should be more settled before we start designing specific policy proposals.
    • wojt_eu 9y ago
      Research that contradicts benefits of frequent physical activity for office workers? Paint me surprised. Can you share some links?
      • jamesrcole 9y ago
        I'm pretty sure I remember reading that the effects of sitting were not, they believe, offset by physical activity. I can't remember the source, but I'm sure there's stuff out there in Google.
        • sdiupIGPWEfh 9y ago
          Pretty sure I remember those same studies. More or less, I believe it was that the effects of sitting all day were not offset by physical activity after work or on weekends. The conclusions were not that taking breaks from sitting have no positive effect.
    • dkersten 9y ago
      There is certainly research that standing for longish periods of time is bad, so neither sitting nor standing desks are really a solution, but I would be very surprised if moving were bad.
  • zitterbewegung 9y ago
    Based on what we know about vacation taking 6 days off reduces stress levels . You also assume people will be sitting during those days off ? They could stand or god forbid exercise . A much better idea to help people not sit is to make a walking break.
    • Clubber 9y ago
      >A much better idea to help people not sit is to make a walking break. Isn't that what I said?
      • zitterbewegung 9y ago
        Yes sorry misread that part
• mmcconnell1618 9y ago
  This assumes people are working just because they aren't on a smoke break. If you work on a production line in a factory, it's fairly easy to see the output level of your work. If you work in an office, there is not a simple measure. The non-smoking worker could just as easily spend the same time chatting it up around the water cooler. Physical presence does not equal working time. I wish more managers understood that motivated workers will work and non-motivated workers will always find the path of least resistance. Remote or in-office doesn't matter that much.
  • wccrawford 9y ago
    No, I think it says that people feel they're working harder than smokers. So far as I can tell, there was no attempt to say they actually do work harder. The other half of this is that it incentivizes smokers to quit. This is about motivating non-smokers who are feeling de-motivated. And about helping people drop an unhealthy habit.
    • musage 9y ago
      > Company based on 29th floor of Tokyo office block Similarly, I help people dropping the unhealthy habit of Tokyo high rise office blocks by not working there. Why mess about with symptoms when you can have the root cause?
      • jdavis703 9y ago
        As opposed to them working in spread out office parks, contributing to a sedentary, car-oriented lifestyle and air pollution?
        • musage 9y ago
          I don't need to detail all your premises I didn't even buy in to to have made my choice. I'm just stating it. It doesn't require your permission or understanding, it already is.
  • bluGill 9y ago
• bryanlarsen 9y ago
  Does the company have a culture of encouraging people to actually take those holidays? Based on my experience in Japan, nobody actually uses their holiday time, to avoid losing face at work. The only holidays people actually take are the public holidays. Luckily, they have a good number of them, including a whole week at the beginning of May.
  • mattmanser 9y ago
    UK's nothing like Japan, most people use all of their holiday.
    • CalRobert 9y ago
      FTA: "Company based on 29th floor of Tokyo.."
      • xxxdarrenxxx 9y ago
        There is a far bigger picture which everyone seems to miss. While non smoking is the ideal solution, thats what it is. ideal Realistically a break (for non-smokers all the same) can create creativity or rather room there for and keep people from spending 20 minutes to fix an issue only to find out the power was unplugged figuratively. Research a side, anecdotally most can vouch for a fresh break creating a more healthy and sometimes faster solution to a problem there after. The thing is these are shades of grey heavily dependent on sector. A cook wasting prep time before service for 15 minutes due to a break is more likely to increase actual workload. Then say a graphic designer creating a logo or product brochure, where taking extra time to brainstorm can very well directly increase product value. Another important factor is that taking the holidays does revitalize many. I'd argue one who never takes breaks or a holiday is more likely to over-work, make errors, get annoyed with colleagues or potentially have to drop work entirely due to workaholic related therapy. All of which scream potential and actual productivity decrease. Tldr; Too often judged on the non verbal implication of 'fairness' which is largely an emotional argument, and not enough on objective measurable productivity increase related to health benefitting break and holiday times.
      • 9y ago
• rectang 9y ago
  My grandfather started smoking (back in the 1920s?) because as a dock worker he was not allowed to take breaks but was also not allowed to smoke on the ship.
• beegeezuz 9y ago
  Or instead of smoking go for a walk/toilet/chat and claim those 6 days like the rest of non-smokers. I see non-smokers in my company doing fuck all all day long...
• megaman22 9y ago
  Good. I used to work a blue-collar, industrial job, and was really tempted to buy a cheap pack of cigs, as a dummy so I could tag along and take a non-smoking break with the smokers. By the time they hoofed from wherever they were working to the designated smoking area, burned one down, and walked back, 20-30 minutes of every hour could get chewed up.
  • brango 9y ago
    Why not just go for a non-smoking break without any pretence?
    • jacobush 9y ago
      A slacker hated by both the addicts and the non using? Nah... gotta have your social support structure in place
      • wavefunction 9y ago
        And you can always further leverage the situation by bumming smokes to the actual smokers.
• 5555624 9y ago
  Years ago, the non-smokers in my group would go out to breakfast every Friday, to make up for smoke breaks. It was just two blocks down the street to a fast food joint, so it didn't make up for all the time someone might spend on a smoke break during the; but, it stopped people from complaining about time lost due to smoke breaks. (Maybe it wasn't healthier, either.)
• leroy_masochist 9y ago
  Given the amount of walking needed to get outside the building and the sedentary nature of their job, it's worth considering whether, on balance, the smokers at this company are actually healthier and more productive than they would be if they kicked the habit.
  • ideonexus 9y ago
    This is the point I wanted to bring up. As a pack-a-day smoker for 10 years, I got up from my desk for 10 minutes every 1.5 hours to smoke a cigarette. Later, as a non-smoker, a health-conscious manager told me he wanted me to get up from my desk once an hour to take a five-minute walk around the building for my health. Regular breaks during the day are better for your health than vacation days; although, both are good for your health.
    • davidcbc 9y ago
      Regular breaks during the day may be better for your health than vacation days, but I'm guessing that gain is offset when you use the break to smoke.
    • peterburkimsher 9y ago
      I walk to the water cooler or toilet every 2 hours, and take a longer break to watch the sunset in the evening if the weather's suitable. Perhaps I drink a lot of water compared to most, but the last I heard was that medical advice is to drink more water.
  • 0xFFFE 9y ago
    > the smokers at this company are actually healthier and more productive More productive perhaps, but healthier? I don't think so. EDIT: Typo.
    • leroy_masochist 9y ago
      They are engaging in consistent (roughly hourly) physical activity (significant amount of walking) in order to go smoke, while the non-smokers are not. The question here is not whether smoking is good for you, which it obviously isn't. It's whether, in this case, the benefit of being forced by addiction to get up and engage in light physical activity once per hour outweighs the carcinogenic effects of the tobacco consumed during smoke breaks.
• jasonkostempski 9y ago
  Wouldn't it be easier to just rename them "breaks"?
• draw_down 9y ago
  This stuff just strikes me as very petty. Something about smoking or smokers just drives people a bit crazy. Before she retired, my mom would regularly bitch to me about the smoke breaks her coworkers took. She’d say “maybe I’d like to just go outside for a little walk”. So do it then! The smoking is bad of course, but the specific focus on it, to me, feels pretty hinky. How about taking breaks every once in a while because you work hard, and you’re a human, not a robot? That should be ok without the passive-aggressive framing. I dunno. Just seems a bit “off” to me.
  • internetman55 9y ago
    That's what I do (just periodically go for walks outside). Some managers don't like it, but I usually just ignore them (sorry dawg, my health is more important to me than pretending to be productive for your sake). I usually ended up getting a lot more done when I was doing it as well.
  • wlesieutre 9y ago
    The reason your mom was complaining is that if she just went outside for a little walk, she'd probably get written up and eventually fired because only smokers are allowed to take those breaks at most workplaces. If you have a boss who's more fair about it, that's great, but I don't think it's typical. This is especially true for places on timeclocks, probably less if you're salaried.
    • draw_down 9y ago
      Sorry, I don’t buy it. I think people tell themselves that to justify why those evil smokers have hearted the system! Obviously it is ok to take a break if people are taking breaks to smoke.
      • wlesieutre 9y ago
        I agree with you, but just because it's obvious to you or me doesn't mean it's obvious to anyone else. Have you never had a manager who enjoyed micromanaging and enforcing rules pointlessly? If you haven't personally, have you never even heard of someone else having such a manager? If a company wants to have breaks for smokers only, there's nothing stopping them: http://www.hrhero.com/hl/articles/2015/07/31/are-for-smokers-only-breaks-unfair-maybe-but-usually-not-illegal/ http://www.hrhero.com/hl/articles/2015/07/31/are-for-smokers...
• throwaway2016a 9y ago
  When I worked for a larger company people would routinely take gym breaks (the gym was right down the hallway) which took the place of smoking breaks. Sure you can't get a huge workout in in a 15 minute break but you can get the heart rate up. In the US I'm not even sure it is legal to provide different benefits to individual employees than the rest of the company. But one thing I can say for sure is that if this was in the US most people wouldn't take the days. Most people I know don't even take the days they have :(
  • ehnto 9y ago
    I feel like you would spend 10-15 minutes just getting changed, showering and all that. Or potentially smell the rest of the day. I guess it worked though.
    • throwaway2016a 9y ago
      Not all workouts build up a sweat. Specifically weight exercises. At the same time, I did say "get the heart rate up" which implied cardio which was perhaps a poor chose of words.
  • baldfat 9y ago
    > In the US I'm not even sure it is legal to provide different benefits to individual employees than the rest of the company. Well it really depends on the state. "At Will" States they can do whatever they like or fire whomever. Now they might get sued but its not against the law to just walk down to a person and say "Your Fired and Your Not Getting An Explaination."
• athenot 9y ago
  As a non-smoker I used to go on the smoke breaks with coworkers. Not as an excuse for time away from work but rather to get up and brainstorm things. That turned out to be more productive than stay seated and let my wheels spin in my brain. Nowadays we use the coffee/watercooler break but it's not quite the same as getting out of the building, feeling the outside air against the skin (hot or cold) and getting a change of scenery. We've tries the walk around the parking lot thing, but most office buildings are really not set up for walking spaces...
  • amai 9y ago
    You know about the dangers of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_smoking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_smoking ?
    • dionidium 9y ago
      It's indicative of the hysteria around secondhand smoke that someone on HN could seriously think that occasionally standing near people smoking outside is a serious health risk.
      • loco5niner 9y ago
        I take it seriously enough that I hold my breath while walking past someone smoking.
        • fasquoika 9y ago
          That's honestly ridiculous. I'd understand if you just don't like the smell, but there's no real health risk involved in walking past someone smoking
          • loco5niner 9y ago
            I agree. It is ridiculous. But it's also ridiculous for someone to polute the air in a public space (it's different if they are off somewhere I can easily avoid by walking a different way). And yes, I also do not like the smell, but it's both. I also have minor breathing problems that I don't want aggravated.
• ehnto 9y ago
  I don't know if it's like this in all companies in Australia, but we take coffee breaks and those happily make up for cigarette breaks. Some smokers come on the walk to the coffee place and smoke outside while we get coffee, two birds with one stone I guess. Some context though, Australia has a fairly great coffee culture, we have even been described as coffee elitists. So while the frugal and indifferent will use the office coffee machine to get a fix, it seems to be pretty well understood that it's not great coffee and you have to venture out to get the good stuff.
  • amai 9y ago
    What about the people who neither smoke nor drink coffee?
    • sgolestane 9y ago
      They get bathroom break :-)
    • ehnto 9y ago
      When they say, "Hey we're going for coffee, want to come?" you could reply "Sure, I'll come for the walk!". I don't think anyone is going to call you out, it would be quite hypocritical of them.
    • kfriede 9y ago
      Most coffee shops have tea and bottled drinks as well.
• Raphmedia 9y ago
  I've never understood this. Don't everyone get the same breaks? Are smokers considered as having a health condition and thus granted extra breaks? It's not as if the boss came in one day and told people "Everyone gets 2 x 15 minutes of breaks a day. Except for smokers, you guys can take all the breaks you want." If my employer gives me 2 x 15 minutes of breaks a day, I'll take those even if I don't smoke.
  • irl_zebra 9y ago
    Well, smokers randomly leave for smoke breaks several times daily. Non smokers don’t do that. So smokers get more breaks, even if non smokers could step outside for 15 minutes at a time theoretically. Also it’s socially acceptable for smokers to do this, less so for non smokers to randomly leave for breaks. Can you explain what you’re not getting?
    • cortesoft 9y ago
      Us non-smokers just go to the bathroom.
      • teniutza 9y ago
        I doubt that smokers just decide to smoke while having a wee...
    • Raphmedia 9y ago
      Perhaps some difference between countries or companies. Everywhere I have worked the breaks were defined in the work contract. Right under my salaries, benefits, etc. I have a clause that more or less says: "You are entitled to take a 30-minute break after working five consecutive hours. This 30 minutes can be split through the day but not used to leave early or lengthen your lunch break." Anyone taking more breaks than that will simply be fired. The only exception being bathroom breaks because let's face it, we are all adult enough not to need to ask a supervisor to take a leak. I use this time to brew and enjoy a coffee in the lounge in the morning and to take a walk around the office during the afternoon. A smoker would probably split those 30 minutes into 6 cigarette breaks and that's fine. Nobody gets extra breaks because they smoke. Is this different elsewhere?
• mc32 9y ago
  On the one hand this appears fair, on the other hand it implies a kind of Taylorist take on time and time management. This could make sense in a manual labor intensive job, but not much in most office jobs where it's harder to attribute productivity to discreet amounts of time.
• shafyy 9y ago
  I can see where this is coming from. Still, I don't think it's a good approach. For example, some people take 30min per day to take a shit during work time. Other people don't take a shit at all or shit very quickly (2-3 min). Some people pee 5 times during work, while others once. You get my point. Where to draw the line?
• drinchev 9y ago
  Cigarette break is not a break every time. You usually can't stop thinking about work for the 10 minutes you spend outside. It's quite the opposite. Smoking break usually shifts you the direction of thinking and you solve a problem probably faster. Not because of the cigarettes itself, but because of the environment change. This whole idea sounds like "People without social media accounts are allowed 1 more day off, because they don't spend time on checking their facebook messages."
  • mig39 9y ago
    Cigarette breaks are sometimes ad-hoc meetings or brainstorming sessions. You get a few people together and talk about work stuff. I found these to be so valuable that even after I quit smoking, I'd still take "fresh air breaks" with others just for this very reason. It's like a forced elevator conversation or something like that :-)
  • nik736 9y ago
    For us developers this might be true, but I also know people who just smoke every hour, they stop doing what they are doing just to get their cig... and that's everything but effective.
  • s73ver_ 9y ago
    It could also be a health incentive, to get people to quit smoking, and thus lower their healthcare costs (if in the US).
  • otakucode 9y ago
    Nicotine is one of the very few substances with strong clinical support as being a cognitive enhancer, so I wouldn't discount its role entirely... but yes, just getting away from things is often what people need. As a culture we are still trying to switch gears from an economy centered completely around mindless repetitive physical labor to one centered around mental work. They're two extremely different things that have to be tackled in different ways, but we still have people kicking around (mostly in management positions) who see taking a break from working on something as 'giving up' or 'slacking off' or similar. Eventually people will come to understand that expecting extended bouts of mental effort from human beings is exactly as reasonable as expecting to have people work for 8 hours without taking a bathroom break.
• baldfat 9y ago
  As a non-coffee drinker can I get ten days?????
• TheVinous 9y ago
  It really depends on the company culture, but in a lot of cases, going for a cigarette break is not equivalent with taking time away from your work. There are a lot of brainstorming and work related discussion can happen, jut like in a tea or coffee break.
• wmantly 9y ago
  Where I work, if the smoke break isn't solo, it's a meeting. We even take non-smokers that would be relevant to the conversation. Sometimes us smokers are the only single to non-smokers that maybe you should get up for a few minutes. I use to work in windows building, after my first few days my co-worker who doesn't smoke thanked me for being smoker, he worked there for about a year prior and never knew when he should get up and go outside, I gave him that guidance. Every job I have worked that isn't hourly, break times are not monitored. If you have something during the work day, just go, if you want to walk around the park and clear your mind, have fun, need a smoke, shit have 2. So long your not screwing something up timing wise. Also, it seems to me that the people who complain about such things have unimportant roles...