6 ms·

> What is the main practical selling point of a model 3 over, say, a leaf? Much better value, larger size, better fuel economy, more conventional, more power,

> What is the main practical selling point of a model 3 over, say, a leaf? Much better value, larger size, better fuel economy, more conventional, more power, more range, and superchargers. Cost per mile of range: $200 for the 2018 leaf, 132 for the Model 3. 147 hp vs 258 hp, 10" of extra length and 6" of extra width, over twice the range at less than half the capacity. The Tesla is way superior to any other electric car on the road. The supercharger alone makes it the obvious buy for almost all consumers.

sushisource 9y ago
How about compared to the Bolt, though? The Bolt seems dramatically more competitive than the Leaf. 200hp, comparable range, and cheaper than the model 3. I think people getting fed up with the wait and switching to Bolts en-masse is a possible scenario. Imagine if Chevy made an ad targeting exactly that scenario.... (You can thank me later Chevy ad execs)
- marcell 9y ago
  Maybe a matter of taste but I think the Model 3 looks much cooler than the Bolt: Bolt: http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/chevrolet/na/us/english/index/vehicles/2017/cars/bolt/mov/01-images/2017-bolt-ev-intro-01.jpg?imwidth=600 http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/chevrolet/na/us/english... Model 3: https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/tesla-model-3-silver-prototype-promo-shot-headlands.jpg?quality=82&strip=all&w=1600 https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/tesla-model-3-s...
- Tiktaalik 9y ago
  The Bolt is a sort of unsexy compact hatchback so I can see it being unappealing to some groups of people even though from all accounts it's a fantastic product that matches the Model 3 in quality. Tesla should be concerned if GM expands their market by taking their Bolt technology and rapidly expanding into vehicle lines that appeal to other groups, such as a Bolt crossover or sexy Bolt hot hatch. Personally the Bolt looks a bit lame to me, but I'd consider one that was a bit sportier and that looked about as good as a Golf GTI.
  - sushisource 9y ago
    Give me a bolt coupe and I'm sold in a heartbeat. Or this thing: https://www.wired.com/story/crazy-cute-concept-cars-from-the-tokyo-auto-show/ https://www.wired.com/story/crazy-cute-concept-cars-from-the...
    - hwillis 9y ago
      A mini countryman is already over 5" longer than a Bolt- there isn't much more coupe to go.
  - lyschoening 9y ago
    Is the Zoe sold in the U.S.? The pricing seems similar and it doesn't look too bad.
- hwillis 9y ago
  The Bolt is $154/mile of range vs $132 for the model 3 and has 30% less horsepower. The model 3 is just under twenty one inches longer and 6.6 inches wider. The Bolt is nearly the size of a mini. It's not in the same purchase category for most consumers. It's also hastily and very poorly designed- the lead aero guy called it a nightmare. To me the most indicative thing about that is the weight. Despite being almost two feet shorter than the model 3, the bolt weighs more than the (short range) model 3. It's a shitty car, and non-electric reviewers have loathed it.
  - maxsilver 9y ago
    > It's a shitty car, and non-electric reviewers have loathed it. It's a perfectly good car, and most non-electric reviewers have said its only major fault is being "not sexy, not cool". Doug DeMuro, for example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2ogGZXmepY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2ogGZXmepY > the bolt weighs more than the (short range) model 3. Sure, but only barely. The short-range Model 3 weighs 3,549lbs, and the Bolt weighs 3,563lbs. Your complaining about a difference of 14 pounds (less than 1%). The Bolt also delivers 18 extra driving miles of range, which explains a small portion of the weight difference. > the lead aero guy called it a nightmare Of course he did, they sacrificed aerodynamics for comfort. Some of the big complaints with Chevy's last electric car (Volt) was that it was too low to the ground and too short -- all great things for aerodynamics, but all things that actual humans complained about. So they made the Bolt a proper hatchback -- taller and sit higher -- to make it nicer for the occupants. Chevy, shockingly, listened to their customers and made some changes they requested. The Bolt is perfectly fine car. Obviously it's not as sexy or luxurious as a Model 3. But the Bolt is not in any way a "shitty car" -- by most accounts, it's fast, comfortable and reliable. In fact, the Bolt is arguably the best electric car you can actually purchase in the US today -- and likely will be for the next year or so until Tesla solves their production struggles.
    - hwillis 9y ago
      Fair, RCR is the only guy that really hated it (I would edit the parent for less vehemence, but I can't). But nearly everybody remarks on how cheap the inside is: > We’re not fans of the front seats—the lack of support reminded us of a vinyl lawn chair. The gear selector moves in an unusual 7-shaped pattern, which makes it tricky to put the Bolt in Reverse.[1] > Although it’s spacious and practical, the Bolt EV’s interior quality and appearance don’t befit its $30,000-plus price point. It looks and feels more as if it belongs in an economy car. It’s clear where General Motors spent its money: on the Bolt’s big battery.[2] > Sure, but only barely. The short-range Model 3 weighs 3,549lbs, and the Bolt weighs 3,563lbs. Your complaining about a difference of 14 pounds (less than 1%). The Bolt also delivers 18 extra driving miles of range, which explains a small portion of the weight difference. I'm complaining about it because the model 3 is a full 10% larger. If you only compare the footprint (which correlates more closely with mass) the model 3 is 23% bigger! That's a HUGE difference! It's not the weight itself that bothers me, it's just what it implies about the design work. > Of course he did, they sacrificed aerodynamics for comfort. Some of the big complaints with Chevy's last electric car (Volt) was that it was too low to the ground and too short -- all great things for aerodynamics, but all things that actual humans complained about. So they made the Bolt a proper hatchback -- taller and sit higher -- to make it nicer for the occupants. Chevy, shockingly, listened to their customers and made some changes they requested. That would be one thing, but the drag coefficient is .312. That's 30% worse than other EVs and stand-out bad among regular cars when it should be much better due to the reduced engine ventilation requirements and smoother underbody. The VW golf sits at .27[4], along with the mercedes b-class. There are tons of combustion hatchbacks at .27 or lower. The Bolt's aerodynamics are closer to the Kia Soul[5][6] than a Golf. The bottom line after all the excuses is still that the Bolt is way under-engineered. > In fact, the Bolt is arguably the best electric car you can actually purchase in the US today -- and likely will be for the next year or so until Tesla solves their production struggles. Yeah, I can agree with that. I get too incensed seeing it compared to a model 3, I guess. I also get unnecessarily annoyed when people buy a coupe civic just to save $1000. If I needed a new car in 2018, it's the car I'd buy (very unhappily). [1] https://www.consumerreports.org/2017-chevrolet-bolt/2017-chevrolet-bolt-review-shockingly-good/ https://www.consumerreports.org/2017-chevrolet-bolt/2017-che... [2] https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-in-depth-model-review-2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-interior-review-car-and-driver-page-5 https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-... [3] http://www.hybridcars.com/2017-chevy-bolt-ev-is-less-of-a-drag-than-originally-believed/ http://www.hybridcars.com/2017-chevy-bolt-ev-is-less-of-a-dr... [4] https://drivemag.com/news/the-most-aerodynamic-cars-you-can-buy-right-now https://drivemag.com/news/the-most-aerodynamic-cars-you-can-... [5] https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/kia/soul/2017/oem/2017_kia_soul_wagon_exclaim_s_oem_1_1280.jpg https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/kia/soul/2017/oem/2017_ki... [6] http://autotk.com/dimensions/kia/soul-ev/2017/ http://autotk.com/dimensions/kia/soul-ev/2017/
- ClassyJacket 9y ago
  For me, it's that even waiting for a Model 3 is going to be quicker than waiting for the Bolt to come out in Australia.
pwinnski 9y ago
> The Tesla is way superior to any other electric car on the road. Except that it mostly isn't on the road at all! Cost per mile of range is a nice way of getting lower numbers for the Tesla, but it's more out of pocket. The model 3 has a longer range, is faster, and is overall much sexier, but it costs for model 3 users to use those superchargers, and you can get a Leaf or Bolt today.
mikestew 9y ago
The Tesla is way superior to any other electric car on the road Tesla has to get them on the road before an accurate comparison can be made to Leafs and Bolts.
- hwillis 9y ago
  They are on the road, just not very many of them. The 2018 Leaf, which I was talking about, does not come to the US until January (or may? Nissan is just saying "early 2018" now). The 2017 Leaf has a range of 107 miles, for $287/mile. It's also 110 hp. Both the Bolt and the Leaf are crap cars. Tesla could raise the price on the model 3 by 10 grand and it would still be a better value.
dzhiurgis 9y ago
Leaf is powered by a 24 kWh battery, so definitely not 'twice the range for half capacity'.
- hwillis 9y ago
  Fumbled that, meant to say "Over twice the range at less than twice the capacity"- ie it's more efficient per kWh despite being larger. Unfortunately I can't edit any more.
adventurer 9y ago
I can't imagine a expensive hatchback by Nissan is on most people's wishlist.
dingaling 9y ago
> The supercharger alone makes it the obvious buy for almost all consumers. Perhaps in parts of the USA but not necessarily in Europe. For example there is ONE supercharger station on the whole island of Ireland, at Ballacolla south-west of Dublin. I've lived on the island for 40 years and have never even been to that part of it.
- hwillis 9y ago
  I mean... it's only 290 miles from Killarney to Londonderry. You really only need one supercharger. If you live in the middle of the island you can drive literally anywhere on a single charge. The supercharger isn't like a gas station, it's only meant for long trips. Ireland could probably do with one on the west coast too, but it still serves its purpose in Dublin. You wouldn't be able to drive all the way south to north in a Leaf or Bolt. But yeah, long trips are much less common in Europe and you'd think Tesla would do worse (especially since even in America the model S is a relatively large sedan), but without checking the numbers AFAIK they do better. I would guess the price point puts it in the range of people who want big cars anyway. Probably it just fills a niche that has been very empty in Europe- wealthy climate-aware buyers with preferences for stylish mid-high level cars.

sushisource 9y ago

How about compared to the Bolt, though? The Bolt seems dramatically more competitive than the Leaf. 200hp, comparable range, and cheaper than the model 3. I think people getting fed up with the wait and switching to Bolts en-masse is a possible scenario. Imagine if Chevy made an ad targeting exactly that scenario.... (You can thank me later Chevy ad execs)

marcell 9y ago
Maybe a matter of taste but I think the Model 3 looks much cooler than the Bolt: Bolt: http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/chevrolet/na/us/english/index/vehicles/2017/cars/bolt/mov/01-images/2017-bolt-ev-intro-01.jpg?imwidth=600 http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/chevrolet/na/us/english... Model 3: https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/tesla-model-3-silver-prototype-promo-shot-headlands.jpg?quality=82&strip=all&w=1600 https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/tesla-model-3-s...
Tiktaalik 9y ago
The Bolt is a sort of unsexy compact hatchback so I can see it being unappealing to some groups of people even though from all accounts it's a fantastic product that matches the Model 3 in quality. Tesla should be concerned if GM expands their market by taking their Bolt technology and rapidly expanding into vehicle lines that appeal to other groups, such as a Bolt crossover or sexy Bolt hot hatch. Personally the Bolt looks a bit lame to me, but I'd consider one that was a bit sportier and that looked about as good as a Golf GTI.
- sushisource 9y ago
  Give me a bolt coupe and I'm sold in a heartbeat. Or this thing: https://www.wired.com/story/crazy-cute-concept-cars-from-the-tokyo-auto-show/ https://www.wired.com/story/crazy-cute-concept-cars-from-the...
  - hwillis 9y ago
    A mini countryman is already over 5" longer than a Bolt- there isn't much more coupe to go.
- lyschoening 9y ago
  Is the Zoe sold in the U.S.? The pricing seems similar and it doesn't look too bad.
hwillis 9y ago
The Bolt is $154/mile of range vs $132 for the model 3 and has 30% less horsepower. The model 3 is just under twenty one inches longer and 6.6 inches wider. The Bolt is nearly the size of a mini. It's not in the same purchase category for most consumers. It's also hastily and very poorly designed- the lead aero guy called it a nightmare. To me the most indicative thing about that is the weight. Despite being almost two feet shorter than the model 3, the bolt weighs more than the (short range) model 3. It's a shitty car, and non-electric reviewers have loathed it.
- maxsilver 9y ago
  > It's a shitty car, and non-electric reviewers have loathed it. It's a perfectly good car, and most non-electric reviewers have said its only major fault is being "not sexy, not cool". Doug DeMuro, for example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2ogGZXmepY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2ogGZXmepY > the bolt weighs more than the (short range) model 3. Sure, but only barely. The short-range Model 3 weighs 3,549lbs, and the Bolt weighs 3,563lbs. Your complaining about a difference of 14 pounds (less than 1%). The Bolt also delivers 18 extra driving miles of range, which explains a small portion of the weight difference. > the lead aero guy called it a nightmare Of course he did, they sacrificed aerodynamics for comfort. Some of the big complaints with Chevy's last electric car (Volt) was that it was too low to the ground and too short -- all great things for aerodynamics, but all things that actual humans complained about. So they made the Bolt a proper hatchback -- taller and sit higher -- to make it nicer for the occupants. Chevy, shockingly, listened to their customers and made some changes they requested. The Bolt is perfectly fine car. Obviously it's not as sexy or luxurious as a Model 3. But the Bolt is not in any way a "shitty car" -- by most accounts, it's fast, comfortable and reliable. In fact, the Bolt is arguably the best electric car you can actually purchase in the US today -- and likely will be for the next year or so until Tesla solves their production struggles.
  - hwillis 9y ago
    Fair, RCR is the only guy that really hated it (I would edit the parent for less vehemence, but I can't). But nearly everybody remarks on how cheap the inside is: > We’re not fans of the front seats—the lack of support reminded us of a vinyl lawn chair. The gear selector moves in an unusual 7-shaped pattern, which makes it tricky to put the Bolt in Reverse.[1] > Although it’s spacious and practical, the Bolt EV’s interior quality and appearance don’t befit its $30,000-plus price point. It looks and feels more as if it belongs in an economy car. It’s clear where General Motors spent its money: on the Bolt’s big battery.[2] > Sure, but only barely. The short-range Model 3 weighs 3,549lbs, and the Bolt weighs 3,563lbs. Your complaining about a difference of 14 pounds (less than 1%). The Bolt also delivers 18 extra driving miles of range, which explains a small portion of the weight difference. I'm complaining about it because the model 3 is a full 10% larger. If you only compare the footprint (which correlates more closely with mass) the model 3 is 23% bigger! That's a HUGE difference! It's not the weight itself that bothers me, it's just what it implies about the design work. > Of course he did, they sacrificed aerodynamics for comfort. Some of the big complaints with Chevy's last electric car (Volt) was that it was too low to the ground and too short -- all great things for aerodynamics, but all things that actual humans complained about. So they made the Bolt a proper hatchback -- taller and sit higher -- to make it nicer for the occupants. Chevy, shockingly, listened to their customers and made some changes they requested. That would be one thing, but the drag coefficient is .312. That's 30% worse than other EVs and stand-out bad among regular cars when it should be much better due to the reduced engine ventilation requirements and smoother underbody. The VW golf sits at .27[4], along with the mercedes b-class. There are tons of combustion hatchbacks at .27 or lower. The Bolt's aerodynamics are closer to the Kia Soul[5][6] than a Golf. The bottom line after all the excuses is still that the Bolt is way under-engineered. > In fact, the Bolt is arguably the best electric car you can actually purchase in the US today -- and likely will be for the next year or so until Tesla solves their production struggles. Yeah, I can agree with that. I get too incensed seeing it compared to a model 3, I guess. I also get unnecessarily annoyed when people buy a coupe civic just to save $1000. If I needed a new car in 2018, it's the car I'd buy (very unhappily). [1] https://www.consumerreports.org/2017-chevrolet-bolt/2017-chevrolet-bolt-review-shockingly-good/ https://www.consumerreports.org/2017-chevrolet-bolt/2017-che... [2] https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-in-depth-model-review-2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-interior-review-car-and-driver-page-5 https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-... [3] http://www.hybridcars.com/2017-chevy-bolt-ev-is-less-of-a-drag-than-originally-believed/ http://www.hybridcars.com/2017-chevy-bolt-ev-is-less-of-a-dr... [4] https://drivemag.com/news/the-most-aerodynamic-cars-you-can-buy-right-now https://drivemag.com/news/the-most-aerodynamic-cars-you-can-... [5] https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/kia/soul/2017/oem/2017_kia_soul_wagon_exclaim_s_oem_1_1280.jpg https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/kia/soul/2017/oem/2017_ki... [6] http://autotk.com/dimensions/kia/soul-ev/2017/ http://autotk.com/dimensions/kia/soul-ev/2017/
ClassyJacket 9y ago
For me, it's that even waiting for a Model 3 is going to be quicker than waiting for the Bolt to come out in Australia.

pwinnski 9y ago

> The Tesla is way superior to any other electric car on the road. Except that it mostly isn't on the road at all! Cost per mile of range is a nice way of getting lower numbers for the Tesla, but it's more out of pocket. The model 3 has a longer range, is faster, and is overall much sexier, but it costs for model 3 users to use those superchargers, and you can get a Leaf or Bolt today.

mikestew 9y ago

The Tesla is way superior to any other electric car on the road Tesla has to get them on the road before an accurate comparison can be made to Leafs and Bolts.

hwillis 9y ago
They are on the road, just not very many of them. The 2018 Leaf, which I was talking about, does not come to the US until January (or may? Nissan is just saying "early 2018" now). The 2017 Leaf has a range of 107 miles, for $287/mile. It's also 110 hp. Both the Bolt and the Leaf are crap cars. Tesla could raise the price on the model 3 by 10 grand and it would still be a better value.

dzhiurgis 9y ago

Leaf is powered by a 24 kWh battery, so definitely not 'twice the range for half capacity'.

hwillis 9y ago
Fumbled that, meant to say "Over twice the range at less than twice the capacity"- ie it's more efficient per kWh despite being larger. Unfortunately I can't edit any more.

adventurer 9y ago

I can't imagine a expensive hatchback by Nissan is on most people's wishlist.

dingaling 9y ago

> The supercharger alone makes it the obvious buy for almost all consumers. Perhaps in parts of the USA but not necessarily in Europe. For example there is ONE supercharger station on the whole island of Ireland, at Ballacolla south-west of Dublin. I've lived on the island for 40 years and have never even been to that part of it.

hwillis 9y ago
I mean... it's only 290 miles from Killarney to Londonderry. You really only need one supercharger. If you live in the middle of the island you can drive literally anywhere on a single charge. The supercharger isn't like a gas station, it's only meant for long trips. Ireland could probably do with one on the west coast too, but it still serves its purpose in Dublin. You wouldn't be able to drive all the way south to north in a Leaf or Bolt. But yeah, long trips are much less common in Europe and you'd think Tesla would do worse (especially since even in America the model S is a relatively large sedan), but without checking the numbers AFAIK they do better. I would guess the price point puts it in the range of people who want big cars anyway. Probably it just fills a niche that has been very empty in Europe- wealthy climate-aware buyers with preferences for stylish mid-high level cars.