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I've learned that a decent proxy for this mythical silver bullet of hiring is basic questions about tooling and networking. Gauging someone's vast, claimed exp

I've learned that a decent proxy for this mythical silver bullet of hiring is basic questions about tooling and networking. Gauging someone's vast, claimed experience in some language or technology can be tricky, but if they can't explain what a rebase is, or how maven dependency management works, or how SSL works in general terms, it tells me a lot about what kind of technologist they are.

scryder 9y ago
As a preface, I’m not saying that those are inherently bad choices per se, because the underlying ideas are obscure enough that anyone who knows them at this moment probably knows other things you care about. That said, never forget that ultimately your filtering criteria leak, and candidates will begin coming in with knowledge JUST about that, because you care. Furthermore, you’re currently optimizing for trivia obtained in CS education that skilled programmers from other STEM fields and non-traditional backgrounds will lack. Besides people directly working on SSL, very few people need to know about symmetric encryption schemes at any practical level, and at best remember it at the same level I just stated it at, as a factoid. So you’re going to mostly find people who’d know that factoid and who’d remember that factoid; put another way, canned-answer spouters.
- blfr 9y ago
  If you set up a web server for anything in the last few years you would have picked up something about SSL. Even if you just skim the rationale before copying the configs from Mozilla. https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Server_Side_TLS#Modern_compatibility https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Server_Side_TLS#Modern_com... If you used git, you probably even did a rebase. Or at least tried to. Or at least saw it as an option. These aren't obscure university topics.
  - jordanpg 9y ago
    Right. They were chosen because experienced Java devs should be extremely comfortable with them. Not just familiar, but basically experts. And if they're not, it's a big red flag that casts a shadow over really anything else they have to say. I'm sure each language/technology has a small list of universals that experienced practitioners should be quite comfortable with. Of course there are exceptions, it's not perfect, but my point is that these things are a good proxy for estimating overall competence level.
    - rhizome 9y ago
      By what measure are you prioritizing Java+git over e.g. Java+Perforce in terms of universals?
      - oehn34the9 9y ago
        Thank you for saying this! I have 30 years of paid CS experience, a degree, owned my own software company, worked for Fortune 50 companies and don't use any of those technologies. (I have used git, and used rebase, but like everything in git, it's so poorly named for what it does, that I don't remember exactly. I wouldn't even want to try to explain it at this point.)
hackinthebochs 9y ago
And I bet those are exactly the kinds of things you're interested in and could answer. What about people who just aren't interested in maven dependency management (seems awfully uninteresting to me)? If your process is set up to find people who think like you and are interested in the exact same things you are, your process is broken. And just to be constructive: you have a nugget of a good idea, that a technologist should have fairly detailed knowledge in some domain of interest. Finding what those areas are and getting them to speak about it beyond a superficial level of detail might be a good hiring criteria.
- jpindar 9y ago
  And that's one of the things done by companies in other businesses, who don't seem to have the same sorts of hiring problems that software companies do. I'm an electrical engineer, and I've never been asked to design something from scratch in an interview. I have been shown existing design drawings or products and asked questions about them, which leads to various discussions. What we do in interviews is talk, both about what the company works on and about what I've worked on.
  - dceddia 9y ago
    I agree with your idea of a proxy. Others seem to be interpreting it as asking trivia questions about your favorite pet projects and technologies. I don't think that's what you're doing. In any given specialty, I think good developers will pick up the stuff around that specialty. Java devs will learn about Maven and git and maybe some JVM customizations to tweak memory usage. Rails devs will learn about which gems are widely-used to solve specific problems, and git, and maybe some devops/deployment stuff with SSH keys and Capistrano. The particulars matter less than that there's some amount of holistic knowledge of their specialty. Of course one can argue the specifics (what if they've used svn but never touched git, etc)... but if there are no specifics -- if the candidate only knows their specific language of choice but nothing outside of it -- I would argue that they're probably not that great.
jbattle 9y ago
An alternate way to do this (which avoids false negatives cause they don't know the same trivia as you) is to ask them to tell you about a tool/library they are excited about. Or ask them to explain some part of their last project in detail. And then keep asking probing questions to see how deep they can go. You get the same sense of "how deeply does this person actually understand the tools they use" but you dramatically reduce the risk of hitting one of their (rare?) blank spots. Side benefit #1 is you get a sense of what they think is important Side benefit #2 is you find out if they can accurately gauge how well they know what they think they know Side-benefit #3 is you might learn something new!
- jpindar 9y ago
  This is the kind of thing people in electrical engineering do.

scryder 9y ago

As a preface, I’m not saying that those are inherently bad choices per se, because the underlying ideas are obscure enough that anyone who knows them at this moment probably knows other things you care about. That said, never forget that ultimately your filtering criteria leak, and candidates will begin coming in with knowledge JUST about that, because you care. Furthermore, you’re currently optimizing for trivia obtained in CS education that skilled programmers from other STEM fields and non-traditional backgrounds will lack. Besides people directly working on SSL, very few people need to know about symmetric encryption schemes at any practical level, and at best remember it at the same level I just stated it at, as a factoid. So you’re going to mostly find people who’d know that factoid and who’d remember that factoid; put another way, canned-answer spouters.

blfr 9y ago
If you set up a web server for anything in the last few years you would have picked up something about SSL. Even if you just skim the rationale before copying the configs from Mozilla. https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Server_Side_TLS#Modern_compatibility https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Server_Side_TLS#Modern_com... If you used git, you probably even did a rebase. Or at least tried to. Or at least saw it as an option. These aren't obscure university topics.
- jordanpg 9y ago
  Right. They were chosen because experienced Java devs should be extremely comfortable with them. Not just familiar, but basically experts. And if they're not, it's a big red flag that casts a shadow over really anything else they have to say. I'm sure each language/technology has a small list of universals that experienced practitioners should be quite comfortable with. Of course there are exceptions, it's not perfect, but my point is that these things are a good proxy for estimating overall competence level.
  - rhizome 9y ago
    By what measure are you prioritizing Java+git over e.g. Java+Perforce in terms of universals?
    - oehn34the9 9y ago
      Thank you for saying this! I have 30 years of paid CS experience, a degree, owned my own software company, worked for Fortune 50 companies and don't use any of those technologies. (I have used git, and used rebase, but like everything in git, it's so poorly named for what it does, that I don't remember exactly. I wouldn't even want to try to explain it at this point.)

hackinthebochs 9y ago

And I bet those are exactly the kinds of things you're interested in and could answer. What about people who just aren't interested in maven dependency management (seems awfully uninteresting to me)? If your process is set up to find people who think like you and are interested in the exact same things you are, your process is broken. And just to be constructive: you have a nugget of a good idea, that a technologist should have fairly detailed knowledge in some domain of interest. Finding what those areas are and getting them to speak about it beyond a superficial level of detail might be a good hiring criteria.

jpindar 9y ago
And that's one of the things done by companies in other businesses, who don't seem to have the same sorts of hiring problems that software companies do. I'm an electrical engineer, and I've never been asked to design something from scratch in an interview. I have been shown existing design drawings or products and asked questions about them, which leads to various discussions. What we do in interviews is talk, both about what the company works on and about what I've worked on.
- dceddia 9y ago
  I agree with your idea of a proxy. Others seem to be interpreting it as asking trivia questions about your favorite pet projects and technologies. I don't think that's what you're doing. In any given specialty, I think good developers will pick up the stuff around that specialty. Java devs will learn about Maven and git and maybe some JVM customizations to tweak memory usage. Rails devs will learn about which gems are widely-used to solve specific problems, and git, and maybe some devops/deployment stuff with SSH keys and Capistrano. The particulars matter less than that there's some amount of holistic knowledge of their specialty. Of course one can argue the specifics (what if they've used svn but never touched git, etc)... but if there are no specifics -- if the candidate only knows their specific language of choice but nothing outside of it -- I would argue that they're probably not that great.

jbattle 9y ago

An alternate way to do this (which avoids false negatives cause they don't know the same trivia as you) is to ask them to tell you about a tool/library they are excited about. Or ask them to explain some part of their last project in detail. And then keep asking probing questions to see how deep they can go. You get the same sense of "how deeply does this person actually understand the tools they use" but you dramatically reduce the risk of hitting one of their (rare?) blank spots. Side benefit #1 is you get a sense of what they think is important Side benefit #2 is you find out if they can accurately gauge how well they know what they think they know Side-benefit #3 is you might learn something new!

jpindar 9y ago
This is the kind of thing people in electrical engineering do.