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> What I'm taking away from Haskeller rebuttals is: Haskell has solutions to all your problems, if only you're smarter than Rich Hickey. This is not, to me, a c

by tome 9y ago

> What I'm taking away from Haskeller rebuttals is: Haskell has solutions to all your problems, if only you're smarter than Rich Hickey. This is not, to me, a compelling sales pitch. As one of the Haskell rebutters, let me give my point of view. Firstly, "Haskell has solutions to all your problems" is a perfectly good overstatement of the case. No need to bring Rich Hickey's intelligence into it. Secondly, Haskell gets you at least quite far towards Hickey's goals. Haskell does have solutions, or at least partial solutions, to all of the problems Hickey raises. Where the Haskell support is particularly weak, for example with row types, we've admitted that. Yet neither he nor his proponents here have shown any understanding of the Haskell (partial) solutions. If he or they had said "I know about all this great stuff, parametric polymorphism, generics, Dynamic, -fdefertypeerrors, ... but it still doesn't get you close to Clojure because of <specific reasons>" then he would be presenting a useful argument. As it is all we can do is disabuse Clojurists of their basic misunderstandings of how Haskell works. Am I being hypocritical? After all, I do not know the intricacies of Clojure. But I'm not the one up on stage being filmed making claims about a language I don't seem to be familiar with.

carljv 9y ago
I get why the tone of the talk is ruffling feathers. If I were a serious Haskeller, I think I'd be a little miffed too. But I think it misses the forest for the trees, and I think, as I commented before, it's hard to understand the context of his issues without understanding his interest in systems. So I get why a lot of rebuttals have been focused on his somewhat glib representation of certain features, but it's still a little frustrating, because I don't think it's a particularly interesting debate. I also don't think he referred to Haskell specifically at any point, and really just spoke about algebraic type systems generally. It wasn't in the scope of the talk, and I don't think it'd be a very interesting talk, to compare Clojure and Haskell features. I bet he thinks Haskell is a great language. Clojure takes a lot of inspiration from Haskell: default immutability, core seq functions that look like Data.List; STM, etc. There probably wouldn't be Clojure without Haskell. His whole point is that types, like any other design feature, come with costs. They can be quite heavy and constraining compared to their benefits in certain contexts, and that may not be worth it. That being said, I don't think it's a compelling rebuttal to say: "If you use Dynamic and fdefertypeerror, Haskell addresses his issues." You'd be run out of town writing Haskell code like that. Re. parametric polymorphism, he explicitly talks about parametricity, and his take seems to be that he doesn't find parametric types that useful for conveying information or guaranteeing interesting things (to him) about your program. I think he's exaggerating, but I get that it's a response to a lot of breathless advocacy about how informative type signatures are. Again, regarding his tone in the talk, I get it. But I think this should provide Haskellers a good opportunity to examine how casually dismissive they are of other languages, especially dynamic ones. IME, statically typed FP proponents are much more dismissive of dynamic languages than dynamic language proponents are of types. It's often "Your language is unsound garbage for lazy programmers" vs. "Sometimes the type system becomes an overly-complex constraint on my problem." As someone who does like types, I'm nonetheless glad that there are folks designing sound dynamic languages and arguing for their usefulness.
- danwilsonthomas 9y ago
  Part of the reason why I personally was so upset by the talk was that it felt as if there was no room for discussion or debate on the points raised. In addition there was what felt like a lot of sniping towards features of statically typed languages that felt designed just to get a reaction from the crowd. The fact that there was an entire slide designated to tearing down a series of videos by SPJ felt not only irrelevant, but also disrespectful. There seemed to be a lack of willingness to meet halfway and concede there was anything useful from the other side. Perhaps most frustratingly, I know that RH is capable of much better, much more informative presentations. There might have been something worthwhile in here, but the tone, style, and majority of the content didn't make it worth digging out in my opinion. Regarding Haskellers' attitudes, I'll add that I haven't seen anything like what you describe at least on the Haskell subreddit. It could be happening in other forums but by and large it's been a welcoming community even to those that come in skeptical.
  - carljv 9y ago
    It's a keynote talk, not a panel discussion. Most keynotes are expressions of strong opinions. > The fact that there was an entire slide designated to tearing down a series of videos by SPJ felt not only irrelevant, but also disrespectful. From the transcript: "Simon Peyton Jones, in an excellent series of talks, listed these advantages of types." ... "And I really disagree just a lot of this. It's not been my experience." How is that tearing down or disrespectful? I get there were a lot of glib bits in the talk, but as you point out, he's talked about these issues with more nuance at other times. It's a shame that hyper-focus on a couple of thrown off jabs at the costs associated with types is distracting folks from the very useful larger point he's discussion about levels of problems in programming, contexts of programs, and how languages that impose strong opinions about how to aggregate information can be counterproductive. I think the Haskell community is, overall, very good and welcoming, but smugness does creep in a lot, IME. But if you want to talk about meeting halfway, I find that it's much less common to see static FP folks concede any benefits of dynamic languages (besides that they're "easier" in a kind of condescending way).
- tome 9y ago

by tome 9y ago

carljv 9y ago

I get why the tone of the talk is ruffling feathers. If I were a serious Haskeller, I think I'd be a little miffed too. But I think it misses the forest for the trees, and I think, as I commented before, it's hard to understand the context of his issues without understanding his interest in systems. So I get why a lot of rebuttals have been focused on his somewhat glib representation of certain features, but it's still a little frustrating, because I don't think it's a particularly interesting debate. I also don't think he referred to Haskell specifically at any point, and really just spoke about algebraic type systems generally. It wasn't in the scope of the talk, and I don't think it'd be a very interesting talk, to compare Clojure and Haskell features. I bet he thinks Haskell is a great language. Clojure takes a lot of inspiration from Haskell: default immutability, core seq functions that look like Data.List; STM, etc. There probably wouldn't be Clojure without Haskell. His whole point is that types, like any other design feature, come with costs. They can be quite heavy and constraining compared to their benefits in certain contexts, and that may not be worth it. That being said, I don't think it's a compelling rebuttal to say: "If you use Dynamic and fdefertypeerror, Haskell addresses his issues." You'd be run out of town writing Haskell code like that. Re. parametric polymorphism, he explicitly talks about parametricity, and his take seems to be that he doesn't find parametric types that useful for conveying information or guaranteeing interesting things (to him) about your program. I think he's exaggerating, but I get that it's a response to a lot of breathless advocacy about how informative type signatures are. Again, regarding his tone in the talk, I get it. But I think this should provide Haskellers a good opportunity to examine how casually dismissive they are of other languages, especially dynamic ones. IME, statically typed FP proponents are much more dismissive of dynamic languages than dynamic language proponents are of types. It's often "Your language is unsound garbage for lazy programmers" vs. "Sometimes the type system becomes an overly-complex constraint on my problem." As someone who does like types, I'm nonetheless glad that there are folks designing sound dynamic languages and arguing for their usefulness.

danwilsonthomas 9y ago
Part of the reason why I personally was so upset by the talk was that it felt as if there was no room for discussion or debate on the points raised. In addition there was what felt like a lot of sniping towards features of statically typed languages that felt designed just to get a reaction from the crowd. The fact that there was an entire slide designated to tearing down a series of videos by SPJ felt not only irrelevant, but also disrespectful. There seemed to be a lack of willingness to meet halfway and concede there was anything useful from the other side. Perhaps most frustratingly, I know that RH is capable of much better, much more informative presentations. There might have been something worthwhile in here, but the tone, style, and majority of the content didn't make it worth digging out in my opinion. Regarding Haskellers' attitudes, I'll add that I haven't seen anything like what you describe at least on the Haskell subreddit. It could be happening in other forums but by and large it's been a welcoming community even to those that come in skeptical.
- carljv 9y ago
  It's a keynote talk, not a panel discussion. Most keynotes are expressions of strong opinions. > The fact that there was an entire slide designated to tearing down a series of videos by SPJ felt not only irrelevant, but also disrespectful. From the transcript: "Simon Peyton Jones, in an excellent series of talks, listed these advantages of types." ... "And I really disagree just a lot of this. It's not been my experience." How is that tearing down or disrespectful? I get there were a lot of glib bits in the talk, but as you point out, he's talked about these issues with more nuance at other times. It's a shame that hyper-focus on a couple of thrown off jabs at the costs associated with types is distracting folks from the very useful larger point he's discussion about levels of problems in programming, contexts of programs, and how languages that impose strong opinions about how to aggregate information can be counterproductive. I think the Haskell community is, overall, very good and welcoming, but smugness does creep in a lot, IME. But if you want to talk about meeting halfway, I find that it's much less common to see static FP folks concede any benefits of dynamic languages (besides that they're "easier" in a kind of condescending way).
tome 9y ago