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> I haven't asked him for details, because we have to work together in a music group and if we fall out the chances are the whole thing stops happening If you
by zakk 9y ago
> I haven't asked him for details, because we have to work together in a music group and if we fall out the chances are the whole thing stops happening
If you ask respectfully, I see now reason why you won't get a polite reply. Maybe you should avoid the following smug remarks, after age 16 they don't sound as good:
> other than the slightly surreal nature of all these people worrying about interpretations of a fictional document and inspirations from a non-existent entity
Anyway, since we are at it and you seem genuinely interested in details, I will give you my personal details. They may not match what you friend believes, but many Catholics have similar feelings.
As someone who left the Catholic Church because of Bergoglio, I must remind you that the Catholic faith is not just about mercy, forgiveness, kindness. I know many merciful and kind people who are not Catholic. So, when establishing a link between mercy and kindness and the Catholic faith, you have to keep in mind a few points:
- The behavior of a Christian is a consequence of some metaphysical beliefs, of following Christ's teaching and the Holy Bible. It would be an error to consider these consequences as the main trait of a Christian. As the name implies, main trait of a Christian is the belief in Christ.
- It has been reaffirmed many times by the Church that mercy and kindness alone are not enough to save your soul, believing in Jesus Christ is also required.
- Also, the Gospel (Matthew 6,1) advises Christian as follows: “Be careful not to do good deeds in front of other people. Don’t do those deeds to be seen by others. If you do, your Father in heaven will not reward you."
This said, let me come to why I don't like Pope Francis. He's kind, and he's merciful, but he's way too vague about the pillars of the faith.
For instance, in one of the first interviews after he was elected Pope, when asked: "Is there a unique vision of what is the Good?", he replied "Everyone has its own vision of what is Good and what is Bad. And we must encourage him to follows whatever he believes is Good".
This is not Christian. Christianity is about a guy, Jesus Christ, who came to say what is the Good. (John 14,6 "I am the way, the truth and the life")
Pope Francis also repeatedly stated that "there is no Catholic God, there is just one God". Again, this is in contrast with two millennia of teachings, and in particular with the Church dogma that there cannot be salvation outside the Christian faith.
One of the most sacred Christian texts, the Athanasian Creed, begins with the following sentence: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly."
I could show you many other example of Pope Francis's sloppy statements about the pillars of the Christian faith, but I hope you understand a bit better why many Christian, genuinely, do not like him.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago> One of the most sacred Christian texts, the Athanasian Creed, begins with the following sentence: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly." Maybe you should avoid such obviously fallacious reasons to accept something as true, after age 16 that doesn't sound as good.
- zakk 9y agoI was just showing -- because someone asked -- why many statements by the Pope don't fit well in the Catholic system of beliefs. I cited the Athanasian Creed to expose a contradiction with what the Pope says. Contrary to you, I didn't make any assessment of the general validity of the system. My argument (what Pope Francis' says conflicts with the sacred texts) is valid whether you believe in Christ or not.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y agoWell, but then you were still missing the point. I would suspect that mathw is well aware of the reasoning that people use to come to those conclusions. What I understand them to be worried about is how anyone in their right mind would use that as a basis for judging somebody, in this case the pope. Your response is like if someone asked "why would anyone hate black people for their skin color", and you would explain the doctrines of white supremacists. Yeah, of course they have doctrines that say they should hate black people. But who in their right mind would follow those doctrines?
- zakk 9y agoYou completely missed the point. When talking about religion, you can do it in two different ways: - Childish talk. For an atheist it will be "Haha! You believe in fairy tales and fiction books", for a Christian it will be "You are going to burn in Hell, and I will laugh at you from Heaven". - Grownup talk. You try to find an argument which holds both for believers and atheists. That's how a discussion about religion between atheists and believers should be conducted, particularly on a site like HN who values discussion. Since mathw was wondering why his Christian friend doesn't like Pope Francis, I showed him some contradictions between what the Pope says and does, and the Catholic faith. And I said: "That's the reason why many Catholics don't like the Pope, probably you friend has similar feelings", answering his question. My argument is objective: a contradiction between A and B is still a contradiction, even if you think B is false. Moreover my argument does not require faith to be understood, and answers to mathw's original question.