8 ms·

A Catholic friend of mine really does not like what Pope Francis is doing. Really, really does not like it. I haven't asked him for details, because we have to

by mathw 9y ago

A Catholic friend of mine really does not like what Pope Francis is doing. Really, really does not like it. I haven't asked him for details, because we have to work together in a music group and if we fall out the chances are the whole thing stops happening (it's a very small group playing instruments very few people can play). But it worries me, because as far as I can tell Pope Francis is quite keen on being nice to people, and showing mercy and forgiveness. I thought those were central tenets of Christian teaching. Of course, as an atheist, I can't really comment, other than the slightly surreal nature of all these people worrying about interpretations of a fictional document and inspirations from a non-existent entity. In fact, this kind of thing could be taken as further evidence that God is a fiction.

camillomiller 9y ago
My Grandma, back in Italy, despises him too, but still respects him. She has his picture on her bedside table, nonetheless, because of course he's still the Pope. Her rationale is simple: the Pope should be a detached quasi-divine figure: from her old Italian woman point of view he's pope-ing wrong. But again, he's still the Pope, so "he must be right".
- b0rsuk 9y ago
  Your grandma has class. Poles who don't like Francis (i.e. most of them) don't have a photo of him, and don't respect him. When he was on a pilgrimage in Poland, church-related media focused on everything except what he was saying.
  - krotton 9y ago
    I think "most of them" is quite a stretch. There indeed is a faction in Poland despising (or openly opposing) Francis, but from what I've witnessed, they seem to be a (vocal) minority. Anyway, that's from an atheist point of view, so probably not very informed.
FloatingGhost 9y ago
tips fedora
ekianjo 9y ago
The Bible is not a fictional document if that is what you were implying. Its contents may be, but as a book we have copies dating back to AD 700 at least without major differences. It is an historical artifact in itself.
- CaptainZapp 9y ago
  Being a historical artifact doesn't rule out that it's a fictional document.
  - ekianjo 9y ago
    Did you read my comment?
  - mac01021 9y ago
    I think the point was that a real document really exists is not a fictional document, even when it is a work of fiction. He was being pedantic, but not asserting that the bible speaks truth.
dctoedt 9y ago
> In fact, this kind of thing could be taken as further evidence that God is a fiction. OTOH, it's been joked that there must be a God, because how else could the Church have survived nearly 2,000 years of all this [stuff]? I know, I know, the joke doesn't withstand critical scrutiny, but still .... Riffing on that subject at the risk of going off-topic: The existence of some kind of Creator finds at least some support in the continuing evolution of the universe from the so-called Big Bang into local areas of greater and greater complexity. (This is a variation on the Weak Anthropic Principle [0].) This continuing cosmic evolution seems consistent with the [EDIT:] conjecture that our universe is part of some kind of Great Project, in which it could be said that we're project workers — as Lutheran theologian Philip Hefner put it, we're created co-creators. Personally I find this conjecture to be exciting and awe-inspiring — but only to the extent that it can be kept evidence-based [2]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Hefner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Hefner [2] Self-cite: http://www.questioningchristian.com/2007/02/another_way_to_.html http://www.questioningchristian.com/2007/02/another_way_to_.... — see also the comments to that piece.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
  > That seems consistent with the notion that our universe is (at least part of) some kind of Great Project Being consistent with something is not an argument for that thing. There is an infinite supply of mutually inconsistent hypotheses you can trivially generate for anything that's yet unknown that are consistent with what is known. Universe-creating unicorn-pixies that like drinking coffee are consistent with the big bang as well (a big bang happens when they drinkg coffee!). That doesn't tell you anything.
  - dctoedt 9y ago
    OK, I'll replace "notion" with "conjecture." But the extant evidence doesn't support coffee-drinking pixies, whereas until someone can convincingly explain how an effect doesn't need a cause, the First-Cause argument [3] for the existence of some kind of Creator [4] remains plausible. (Those who say the universe just is, are making the same kind of conjecture, no?) [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover#First_cause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover#First_cause [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument
zakk 9y ago
> I haven't asked him for details, because we have to work together in a music group and if we fall out the chances are the whole thing stops happening If you ask respectfully, I see now reason why you won't get a polite reply. Maybe you should avoid the following smug remarks, after age 16 they don't sound as good: > other than the slightly surreal nature of all these people worrying about interpretations of a fictional document and inspirations from a non-existent entity Anyway, since we are at it and you seem genuinely interested in details, I will give you my personal details. They may not match what you friend believes, but many Catholics have similar feelings. As someone who left the Catholic Church because of Bergoglio, I must remind you that the Catholic faith is not just about mercy, forgiveness, kindness. I know many merciful and kind people who are not Catholic. So, when establishing a link between mercy and kindness and the Catholic faith, you have to keep in mind a few points: - The behavior of a Christian is a consequence of some metaphysical beliefs, of following Christ's teaching and the Holy Bible. It would be an error to consider these consequences as the main trait of a Christian. As the name implies, main trait of a Christian is the belief in Christ. - It has been reaffirmed many times by the Church that mercy and kindness alone are not enough to save your soul, believing in Jesus Christ is also required. - Also, the Gospel (Matthew 6,1) advises Christian as follows: “Be careful not to do good deeds in front of other people. Don’t do those deeds to be seen by others. If you do, your Father in heaven will not reward you." This said, let me come to why I don't like Pope Francis. He's kind, and he's merciful, but he's way too vague about the pillars of the faith. For instance, in one of the first interviews after he was elected Pope, when asked: "Is there a unique vision of what is the Good?", he replied "Everyone has its own vision of what is Good and what is Bad. And we must encourage him to follows whatever he believes is Good". This is not Christian. Christianity is about a guy, Jesus Christ, who came to say what is the Good. (John 14,6 "I am the way, the truth and the life") Pope Francis also repeatedly stated that "there is no Catholic God, there is just one God". Again, this is in contrast with two millennia of teachings, and in particular with the Church dogma that there cannot be salvation outside the Christian faith. One of the most sacred Christian texts, the Athanasian Creed, begins with the following sentence: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly." I could show you many other example of Pope Francis's sloppy statements about the pillars of the Christian faith, but I hope you understand a bit better why many Christian, genuinely, do not like him.
b0rsuk 9y ago
Fiction or not, religion has very real influence on the world. I'm an atheist, but religion interests me as a force that shapes societies and culture. As a general rule, the notion of conscience is alien to people of Africa. They don't feel guilty, they only feel regret if they're caught. Now Africa is vast and this is a big oversimplification, especially that large populations of Africa are now Christian, but conscience is still an imported good in Africa and not deeply rooted in its culture. Is it a coincidence Africa suffers from corruption ?
- mping 9y ago
  I am amazed to see this comment in 2017. Wtf?? Saying Africans have dark skin is a big oversimplification, you are basically saying that they are morally inferior. Have you ever been to Africa? Have African relatives? Know African people? I am ashamed by your comment. I invite you to provide some kind of anecdote or proof for your statement. Otherwise don't spread ignorance please.
- falcolas 9y ago
  > Is it a coincidence Africa suffers from corruption ? So, what's the US' excuse? Europe's? China's? India's? I hate the "correlation is not causation" trope that's trotted out constantly, but it really applies here.

by mathw 9y ago

camillomiller 9y ago

My Grandma, back in Italy, despises him too, but still respects him. She has his picture on her bedside table, nonetheless, because of course he's still the Pope. Her rationale is simple: the Pope should be a detached quasi-divine figure: from her old Italian woman point of view he's pope-ing wrong. But again, he's still the Pope, so "he must be right".

b0rsuk 9y ago
Your grandma has class. Poles who don't like Francis (i.e. most of them) don't have a photo of him, and don't respect him. When he was on a pilgrimage in Poland, church-related media focused on everything except what he was saying.
- krotton 9y ago
  I think "most of them" is quite a stretch. There indeed is a faction in Poland despising (or openly opposing) Francis, but from what I've witnessed, they seem to be a (vocal) minority. Anyway, that's from an atheist point of view, so probably not very informed.

FloatingGhost 9y ago

tips fedora

ekianjo 9y ago

The Bible is not a fictional document if that is what you were implying. Its contents may be, but as a book we have copies dating back to AD 700 at least without major differences. It is an historical artifact in itself.

CaptainZapp 9y ago
Being a historical artifact doesn't rule out that it's a fictional document.
- ekianjo 9y ago
  Did you read my comment?
- mac01021 9y ago
  I think the point was that a real document really exists is not a fictional document, even when it is a work of fiction. He was being pedantic, but not asserting that the bible speaks truth.

dctoedt 9y ago

> In fact, this kind of thing could be taken as further evidence that God is a fiction. OTOH, it's been joked that there must be a God, because how else could the Church have survived nearly 2,000 years of all this [stuff]? I know, I know, the joke doesn't withstand critical scrutiny, but still .... Riffing on that subject at the risk of going off-topic: The existence of some kind of Creator finds at least some support in the continuing evolution of the universe from the so-called Big Bang into local areas of greater and greater complexity. (This is a variation on the Weak Anthropic Principle [0].) This continuing cosmic evolution seems consistent with the [EDIT:] conjecture that our universe is part of some kind of Great Project, in which it could be said that we're project workers — as Lutheran theologian Philip Hefner put it, we're created co-creators. Personally I find this conjecture to be exciting and awe-inspiring — but only to the extent that it can be kept evidence-based [2]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Hefner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Hefner [2] Self-cite: http://www.questioningchristian.com/2007/02/another_way_to_.html http://www.questioningchristian.com/2007/02/another_way_to_.... — see also the comments to that piece.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
> That seems consistent with the notion that our universe is (at least part of) some kind of Great Project Being consistent with something is not an argument for that thing. There is an infinite supply of mutually inconsistent hypotheses you can trivially generate for anything that's yet unknown that are consistent with what is known. Universe-creating unicorn-pixies that like drinking coffee are consistent with the big bang as well (a big bang happens when they drinkg coffee!). That doesn't tell you anything.
- dctoedt 9y ago
  OK, I'll replace "notion" with "conjecture." But the extant evidence doesn't support coffee-drinking pixies, whereas until someone can convincingly explain how an effect doesn't need a cause, the First-Cause argument [3] for the existence of some kind of Creator [4] remains plausible. (Those who say the universe just is, are making the same kind of conjecture, no?) [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover#First_cause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover#First_cause [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument

zakk 9y ago

> I haven't asked him for details, because we have to work together in a music group and if we fall out the chances are the whole thing stops happening If you ask respectfully, I see now reason why you won't get a polite reply. Maybe you should avoid the following smug remarks, after age 16 they don't sound as good: > other than the slightly surreal nature of all these people worrying about interpretations of a fictional document and inspirations from a non-existent entity Anyway, since we are at it and you seem genuinely interested in details, I will give you my personal details. They may not match what you friend believes, but many Catholics have similar feelings. As someone who left the Catholic Church because of Bergoglio, I must remind you that the Catholic faith is not just about mercy, forgiveness, kindness. I know many merciful and kind people who are not Catholic. So, when establishing a link between mercy and kindness and the Catholic faith, you have to keep in mind a few points: - The behavior of a Christian is a consequence of some metaphysical beliefs, of following Christ's teaching and the Holy Bible. It would be an error to consider these consequences as the main trait of a Christian. As the name implies, main trait of a Christian is the belief in Christ. - It has been reaffirmed many times by the Church that mercy and kindness alone are not enough to save your soul, believing in Jesus Christ is also required. - Also, the Gospel (Matthew 6,1) advises Christian as follows: “Be careful not to do good deeds in front of other people. Don’t do those deeds to be seen by others. If you do, your Father in heaven will not reward you." This said, let me come to why I don't like Pope Francis. He's kind, and he's merciful, but he's way too vague about the pillars of the faith. For instance, in one of the first interviews after he was elected Pope, when asked: "Is there a unique vision of what is the Good?", he replied "Everyone has its own vision of what is Good and what is Bad. And we must encourage him to follows whatever he believes is Good". This is not Christian. Christianity is about a guy, Jesus Christ, who came to say what is the Good. (John 14,6 "I am the way, the truth and the life") Pope Francis also repeatedly stated that "there is no Catholic God, there is just one God". Again, this is in contrast with two millennia of teachings, and in particular with the Church dogma that there cannot be salvation outside the Christian faith. One of the most sacred Christian texts, the Athanasian Creed, begins with the following sentence: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly." I could show you many other example of Pope Francis's sloppy statements about the pillars of the Christian faith, but I hope you understand a bit better why many Christian, genuinely, do not like him.

b0rsuk 9y ago

Fiction or not, religion has very real influence on the world. I'm an atheist, but religion interests me as a force that shapes societies and culture. As a general rule, the notion of conscience is alien to people of Africa. They don't feel guilty, they only feel regret if they're caught. Now Africa is vast and this is a big oversimplification, especially that large populations of Africa are now Christian, but conscience is still an imported good in Africa and not deeply rooted in its culture. Is it a coincidence Africa suffers from corruption ?

mping 9y ago
I am amazed to see this comment in 2017. Wtf?? Saying Africans have dark skin is a big oversimplification, you are basically saying that they are morally inferior. Have you ever been to Africa? Have African relatives? Know African people? I am ashamed by your comment. I invite you to provide some kind of anecdote or proof for your statement. Otherwise don't spread ignorance please.
falcolas 9y ago
> Is it a coincidence Africa suffers from corruption ? So, what's the US' excuse? Europe's? China's? India's? I hate the "correlation is not causation" trope that's trotted out constantly, but it really applies here.