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"John: If I walked into work with a "Make America Great Again" hat, there would be repercussions. Quite a few people would take it as a personal affront, and I

"John: If I walked into work with a "Make America Great Again" hat, there would be repercussions. Quite a few people would take it as a personal affront, and I would expect to be out of the company within weeks, if not a month." If someone walked in with a young earth creationist hat I would similarly question their ability to think critically (and have a hard time not just categorizing them as stupid). Is this really about politics? It's not because they're 'conservative', it's just given access to the same available information some conclusions are just weak and it's reasonable to lose respect for people when they hold them.

lambdaphagy 9y ago
"It's not because of politics, it's because my political opponents are objectively dumb."
- UncleSlacky 9y ago
  This, but unironically.
  - lambdaphagy 9y ago
    Among the very smartest people I know, I count both Trump supporters and anyone-but-Trump supporters. If you don't know any smart people who disagree with you, consider the possibility that you may be living in a kind of intellectual Mauritius.
    - marcelluspye 9y ago
      >Among the very smartest people I know, I count both Trump supporters and anyone-but-Trump supporters. Not the guy you were replying to, but I can't say the same. I know plenty of smart conservatives, and plenty of smart republicans, (some of whom may have voted for Trump), but of the very few Trump supporters I know, I would definitely not say they're among the smartest I know. An even fewer number of times have I talked to someone with a MAGA hat, and every single one of those times the hat's owner has said something blatantly ignorant, racist or sexist. Are there smart trump supporters? I'm sure there are some. Do I feel like I'm losing anything by not associating with them? No, not really.
      - lambdaphagy 9y ago
        I'm not talking about association, I'm talking about engagement. You don't have to like someone to consider that their views are worth grappling with.
      - RickJWag 9y ago
        I didn't vote for Trump, but I now believe he was the best candidate. Hillary's cheat against Bernie and her shaming of Bill's victims is the primary reason I find Trump the best choice. So you'd have to call me a Trump supporter. I think if you find the above arguments stupid, we'd have a disagreement.
chippy 9y ago
Would you expect the Young Creationist to create personal offence in their co-workers and expect them to be out of the company in weeks? Because I don't think that would be the case.
BeetleB 9y ago
I think it is reasonable to question their competency. I think we all do it to an extent with coworkers. The mistake is concluding it based on this type of scant information. You treat it like any other unknown. You investigate deeper. If you work with the person for a while, you'll know his reasoning abilities far better than the information you gleaned from that hat. >If someone walked in with a young earth creationist hat I would similarly question their ability to think critically (and have a hard time not just categorizing them as stupid). And yet I've worked with a young earth creationist who was the best coder in his team (the rest of whom were not creationists). From my general experiences in life, his example is not much of an outlier. Science Nobel laureates have believed in stupid things, as did many well known mathematicians of the past. Given that, why would you question his abilities?
- fossuser 9y ago
  I think that's fair and it's important to dig deeper. People in the past did believe stupid things, but it's also a mixture of what information was available to them at the time to reason about. Some ideas that may have been the best option at the time should be discarded today given that we know more. I'd think if you brought those people from the past to today they may discard some of their ideas (though changing your mind is hard). It's not that a creationist can't be a good programmer - people seem to be able to apply their reasoning abilities selectively and I've met smart religious people that jump through crazy hoops to justify why they're religious. It is a data point against them though and it would reduce my impression of their intelligence.
  - AlexandrB 9y ago
    > I'd think if you brought those people from the past to today they may discard some of their ideas (though changing your mind is hard). Possible, but unlikely for any beliefs they hold dear. And thinking that other people stick to crazy beliefs because they are less smart than you is a great way to end up with a lot of crazy beliefs yourself. After all, why would you ever question them? You're too smart to believe something crazy! "Science progresses one funeral at a time." -- Max Planck
Balgair 9y ago
Thank you. Not all conservatives voted for the Cheeto nor Hil-dawg. It's not red v blue, we're all Americans and we all should want for all of us to 'win.'
edanm 9y ago
If you assume that anyone who reached different conclusions than you is stupid by definition, then you'll quite literally never be able to change your mind.
- pklausler 9y ago
  Nobody's stupid by definition. Lots of people are provably stupid by very short chains of reasoning, e.g. flat-earthers.
  - AlexandrB 9y ago
    > Lots of people are provably stupid by very short chains of reasoning, e.g. flat-earthers. They're provably wrong by very short chains of reasoning. That's not the same as provably stupid. Even very smart, educated people can hold beliefs that are completely bonkers though a combination of cognitive dissonance and misinformation. For a very prominent example, take a look at how Steve Jobs dealt with his cancer [1]: > Despite his diagnosis, Jobs resisted his doctors' recommendations for medical intervention for nine months,[117] instead relying on a pseudo-medicine diet to try natural healing to thwart the disease. And that's setting aside the apparent confusion in this thread between intelligence and morality. Just because someone holds a stupid belief, doesn't mean they're a bad person, a threat to their coworkers, or unable to do their job. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs#Health_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs#Health_issues
    - pklausler 9y ago
      Being persistently wrong, despite overwhelming evidence, is stupid.
- fossuser 9y ago
  I don't assume that - it depends on the conclusion and the reasoning that leads to it (obviously I can be wrong). I think some conclusions are stupid based on the available information. When people hold a lot of stupid conclusions or a few really strongly I doubt their ability to think critically in general. When someone has a different conclusion than I do, I'm curious about what reasoning lead to it, but often it's not an attempt to understand what's true based on available evidence. It's usually a conclusion they have for other reasons (identity? group association?) and they either can't articulate why they think the way they do or they retroactively come up with stuff that already fits their answer. The conclusion came before the reasoning about it. It's not about figuring out what's true. This is a problem outside of politics - it's a problem with how our minds work by default and how people think.

lambdaphagy 9y ago

"It's not because of politics, it's because my political opponents are objectively dumb."

UncleSlacky 9y ago
This, but unironically.
- lambdaphagy 9y ago
  Among the very smartest people I know, I count both Trump supporters and anyone-but-Trump supporters. If you don't know any smart people who disagree with you, consider the possibility that you may be living in a kind of intellectual Mauritius.
  - marcelluspye 9y ago
    >Among the very smartest people I know, I count both Trump supporters and anyone-but-Trump supporters. Not the guy you were replying to, but I can't say the same. I know plenty of smart conservatives, and plenty of smart republicans, (some of whom may have voted for Trump), but of the very few Trump supporters I know, I would definitely not say they're among the smartest I know. An even fewer number of times have I talked to someone with a MAGA hat, and every single one of those times the hat's owner has said something blatantly ignorant, racist or sexist. Are there smart trump supporters? I'm sure there are some. Do I feel like I'm losing anything by not associating with them? No, not really.
    - lambdaphagy 9y ago
      I'm not talking about association, I'm talking about engagement. You don't have to like someone to consider that their views are worth grappling with.
    - RickJWag 9y ago
      I didn't vote for Trump, but I now believe he was the best candidate. Hillary's cheat against Bernie and her shaming of Bill's victims is the primary reason I find Trump the best choice. So you'd have to call me a Trump supporter. I think if you find the above arguments stupid, we'd have a disagreement.

chippy 9y ago

Would you expect the Young Creationist to create personal offence in their co-workers and expect them to be out of the company in weeks? Because I don't think that would be the case.

BeetleB 9y ago

I think it is reasonable to question their competency. I think we all do it to an extent with coworkers. The mistake is concluding it based on this type of scant information. You treat it like any other unknown. You investigate deeper. If you work with the person for a while, you'll know his reasoning abilities far better than the information you gleaned from that hat. >If someone walked in with a young earth creationist hat I would similarly question their ability to think critically (and have a hard time not just categorizing them as stupid). And yet I've worked with a young earth creationist who was the best coder in his team (the rest of whom were not creationists). From my general experiences in life, his example is not much of an outlier. Science Nobel laureates have believed in stupid things, as did many well known mathematicians of the past. Given that, why would you question his abilities?

fossuser 9y ago
I think that's fair and it's important to dig deeper. People in the past did believe stupid things, but it's also a mixture of what information was available to them at the time to reason about. Some ideas that may have been the best option at the time should be discarded today given that we know more. I'd think if you brought those people from the past to today they may discard some of their ideas (though changing your mind is hard). It's not that a creationist can't be a good programmer - people seem to be able to apply their reasoning abilities selectively and I've met smart religious people that jump through crazy hoops to justify why they're religious. It is a data point against them though and it would reduce my impression of their intelligence.
- AlexandrB 9y ago
  > I'd think if you brought those people from the past to today they may discard some of their ideas (though changing your mind is hard). Possible, but unlikely for any beliefs they hold dear. And thinking that other people stick to crazy beliefs because they are less smart than you is a great way to end up with a lot of crazy beliefs yourself. After all, why would you ever question them? You're too smart to believe something crazy! "Science progresses one funeral at a time." -- Max Planck

Balgair 9y ago

Thank you. Not all conservatives voted for the Cheeto nor Hil-dawg. It's not red v blue, we're all Americans and we all should want for all of us to 'win.'

edanm 9y ago

If you assume that anyone who reached different conclusions than you is stupid by definition, then you'll quite literally never be able to change your mind.

pklausler 9y ago
Nobody's stupid by definition. Lots of people are provably stupid by very short chains of reasoning, e.g. flat-earthers.
- AlexandrB 9y ago
  > Lots of people are provably stupid by very short chains of reasoning, e.g. flat-earthers. They're provably wrong by very short chains of reasoning. That's not the same as provably stupid. Even very smart, educated people can hold beliefs that are completely bonkers though a combination of cognitive dissonance and misinformation. For a very prominent example, take a look at how Steve Jobs dealt with his cancer [1]: > Despite his diagnosis, Jobs resisted his doctors' recommendations for medical intervention for nine months,[117] instead relying on a pseudo-medicine diet to try natural healing to thwart the disease. And that's setting aside the apparent confusion in this thread between intelligence and morality. Just because someone holds a stupid belief, doesn't mean they're a bad person, a threat to their coworkers, or unable to do their job. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs#Health_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs#Health_issues
  - pklausler 9y ago
    Being persistently wrong, despite overwhelming evidence, is stupid.
fossuser 9y ago
I don't assume that - it depends on the conclusion and the reasoning that leads to it (obviously I can be wrong). I think some conclusions are stupid based on the available information. When people hold a lot of stupid conclusions or a few really strongly I doubt their ability to think critically in general. When someone has a different conclusion than I do, I'm curious about what reasoning lead to it, but often it's not an attempt to understand what's true based on available evidence. It's usually a conclusion they have for other reasons (identity? group association?) and they either can't articulate why they think the way they do or they retroactively come up with stuff that already fits their answer. The conclusion came before the reasoning about it. It's not about figuring out what's true. This is a problem outside of politics - it's a problem with how our minds work by default and how people think.