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Why would you not expect your co-workers to take a MAGA hat as a personal attack? The MAGA platform is associated with explicitly barring some of them from the

Why would you not expect your co-workers to take a MAGA hat as a personal attack? The MAGA platform is associated with explicitly barring some of them from the country. Remember that even some green card holders were briefly barred from reentering. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13769#Green-card_holders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13769#Green-ca...

nkrisc 9y ago
Exactly. It is a personal affront. Great again for whom? Because it certainly doesn't seem like it's meant for everyone.
majormajor 9y ago
What if you don't have the hat but don't favor liberal immigration policies? Would expressing this political stance be taken as a personal attack? If so, that level of "we must stamp out the heresy!" is generally associated with more extreme religious types, not supposedly rational open-minded people. And that's where the danger lies: once you stop permitting the expression of contrary views, your ability to argue against them will atrophy.
- colanderman 9y ago
  If your political belief, implemented, would directly and immediately destroy my or my loved ones' lives, keep it the hell out of the workplace.
- hasbroslasher 9y ago
  The problem, of course, is that there's no way to tell from outward appearances what someone believes. A good example of this is the appropriation of Satanic imagery in rock music: few of these bands are theistic or LaVeyan Satanists, most of them are just doing it to send a message. The connotation of pentagrams and upside down crosses is "watch out, I'm evil, I like evil things, etc". Conservative Christians, however, often don't realize this and legitimately believe these people to be agents of the Devil, when usually they're just trying to provoke a reaction. There's a layer of semiotics that's important to any outward appearance. Wearing a swastika but saying "Nonono it's a Hindu symbol of fertility" probably wouldn't go over well. Nor would saying "Well I didn't like the Holocaust but I really did think the Nazis had some good ideas about things". Similarly, wearing a hammer and sickle shirt will get you into trouble in more conservative places. The MAGA hat's obviously on a different level than that, but it does explain some of the reasoning. That hat in particular represents (sometimes fanatical) appreciation for a man that liberals believe is doing immense harm to our nation, it's citizens and its image via racist, reactionary and backwards-looking politics. Because of far-right extremists, I get scared when I see that hat, to me it signals some form of white supremacy that I need to stay away from. So yes, wearing it at work might make people uncomfortable.
  - zeveb 9y ago
    > That hat in particular represents (sometimes fanatical) appreciation for a man that liberals believe is doing immense harm to our nation, it's citizens and its image via racist, reactionary and backwards-looking politics. Of course, many people believed that the previous president was doing immense harm to our nation, its citizens and the world at large … but I don't think many were fired for wearing their Hope & Change or Yes We Can hats … > Because of far-right extremists, I get scared when I see that hat, to me it signals some form of white supremacy that I need to stay away from. So yes, wearing it at work might make people uncomfortable. And yet people have no problem whatsoever bringing stuff expressing the opposite viewpoint into the workplace. It's normal to hear people expressing moderately- and far-left opinions in the workplace. It's not to hear them express even centrist-right opinions. FWIW, I don't subscribe to pretty much anything a MAGA hat conveys, and I didn't vote for the current president.
    - hasbroslasher 9y ago
      I mean, I'm not saying anyone should be fired, but people should understand the context of their fashion choices and the persona they cultivate. Aside: conservatives like to say "life's not fair" until it comes to things like this. FWIW I occasionally express centrist positions at my left-leaning job, I don't get fired or reprimanded. Nor do I get reprimanded for advocating for socialism. I don't think anyone would be either for expressing conservative positions. Maybe I'm naive. They might, however, face social sanctions or get in an awkward debate if they were arguing that two people on my team should not be allowed in this country as immigrants, or that my gay coworkers shouldn't have the same rights as everyone else. There's obviously going to be a clash of beliefs and they should recognize that. Similarly, if any of us were to make sweeping generalizations about white people, it'd be awkward for the white people on the team, and it might spur a big debate. No one likes to feel attacked, especially at work, so we learn to feel out what's allowed or what's out of bounds and then work with that. Without a doubt, if one of my coworkers came to me and said "Look, I like working with you but you have to stop shit talking conservatives at work" I'd be more mindful of it and avoid making it awkward. I'm not sure why these men feel that they aren't able to do that.
    - 9y ago
- Blackthorn 9y ago
  "don't favor liberal immigration policy" is not the same thing as Trump policy.
- CalChris 9y ago
  It's not like I have much of respect for out conservatives but I have even less for closeted conservatives when I eventually find out. Got the hat? Wear it and defend your ideas. I am open minded and rational, or at least I think I am. But if you think I'm stamping out heresy because I don't tolerate bigotry, tough. BTW, my paternal grandfather was an illegal. Paid his taxes. Stayed out of jail. The grand kids, at least on this half, have been amazingly successful and contributed a lot to the economy, society and our national defense.
  - majormajor 9y ago
    I don't have the hat or the beliefs, but way to illustrate that you can't even imagine someone being able to understand opposing positions. You certainly don't sound open minded or rational, since you're assuming bigotry could be the only possible root belief for similar policy goals. How you want to react is your business, but again, you should be aware that it's going to impact how effective your fight against those views is.
    - CalChris 9y ago
      No, I'm not going to imagine anything. You actually have to say what you stand for.
      - stale2002 9y ago
        > I have even less for closeted conservatives when I eventually find out. > I don't tolerate bigotry, tough. > No, I'm not going to imagine anything. You just did, man. I'd be afraid to express my views around you, as anything that approaches conservatism will be labeled as "Bigotry", and therefore "not tolerated". Whos knows what opinions you are throwing under the bus. Best to not risk it. It is perfectly rational for someone to not express their opinions around someone who is going to misinterpret them.
        CalChris 9y ago
        Sorry cupcake, but you should be afraid to express your views around me because I will force you to defend them. After y'all voted in Cheeto, no more Mister Nice Guy.
BeetleB 9y ago
>The MAGA platform is associated with explicitly barring some of them from the country. That's essentially saying that people have to agree with the whole platform or none of it. As an example, there are many liberals who voted for Obama and did not agree with all aspects of the platform (healthcare reform or military policies). Would wearing a "Yes, we can" shirt/hat be offensive, then? That kind of argument seems very reductionist. Finally, the very format of your question is problematic, for two reasons. First, making claims that someone is trying to offend by wearing a slogan is what is referred to as "attribution of intention". Instead of having a dialog about it, you're concluding the person's intention. As someone who has often been on the receiving end of that (I'm sure we all have on divisive issues), that is very offensive. Second, this type of reasoning is what I often call, "From ignorance comes uncertainty." You are indirectly admitting you cannot understand any other reason someone would act in a certain way, and then imply you know the "true" reason. Usually such statements are phrased as "I cannot think of a good reason X would do it, therefore it must be because of Y". I'll grant that you did not use this exact template, and if your question really was borne out of curiosity, I apologize for my own "attribution of intent". But I do hope I have given you something to think about on the topic in question.
- colanderman 9y ago
  False equivalence. (There's a lot of that in the Trump age.) Obama never explicitly ran on a platform of implementing a policy which would immediately destroy the livelihood of upstanding individuals based on their identity or associations. (See: Muslim ban, immigration policy, transgender ban.)
  - BeetleB 9y ago
    >Obama never explicitly ran on a platform of implementing a policy which would immediately destroy the livelihood of upstanding individuals based on their identity or associations. He did, however, run on a platform that was about escalating a conflict in another part of the world, and did implement it, and many people did end up being killed, which is a lot more than what Trump did.
chippy 9y ago
The article suggests the novel view that showing one's political side in the workplace should not be considered offensive nor for it to be taken personally.
- colanderman 9y ago
  Hard to not take someone's political views personally if they would destroy your livelihood, personally. I am lucky to be a citizen. Were I an Iranian green card holder visiting family abroad when the first Muslim travel ban was implemented? I would now be facing losing my job and my home. A transgender member of the armed forces now? Facing losing my livelihood in a matter of months. An undocumented immigrant who is the only support for his documented family? Now the entire family is homeless and fatherless. At best this argument applies to Hillary/Obama through some hand-waving abstract argument about environmental regulations and international trade agreements that ignores economic opportunities created by their policies. Someone banned from their livelihood because of their identity has no recourse.

nkrisc 9y ago

Exactly. It is a personal affront. Great again for whom? Because it certainly doesn't seem like it's meant for everyone.

majormajor 9y ago

What if you don't have the hat but don't favor liberal immigration policies? Would expressing this political stance be taken as a personal attack? If so, that level of "we must stamp out the heresy!" is generally associated with more extreme religious types, not supposedly rational open-minded people. And that's where the danger lies: once you stop permitting the expression of contrary views, your ability to argue against them will atrophy.

colanderman 9y ago
If your political belief, implemented, would directly and immediately destroy my or my loved ones' lives, keep it the hell out of the workplace.
hasbroslasher 9y ago
The problem, of course, is that there's no way to tell from outward appearances what someone believes. A good example of this is the appropriation of Satanic imagery in rock music: few of these bands are theistic or LaVeyan Satanists, most of them are just doing it to send a message. The connotation of pentagrams and upside down crosses is "watch out, I'm evil, I like evil things, etc". Conservative Christians, however, often don't realize this and legitimately believe these people to be agents of the Devil, when usually they're just trying to provoke a reaction. There's a layer of semiotics that's important to any outward appearance. Wearing a swastika but saying "Nonono it's a Hindu symbol of fertility" probably wouldn't go over well. Nor would saying "Well I didn't like the Holocaust but I really did think the Nazis had some good ideas about things". Similarly, wearing a hammer and sickle shirt will get you into trouble in more conservative places. The MAGA hat's obviously on a different level than that, but it does explain some of the reasoning. That hat in particular represents (sometimes fanatical) appreciation for a man that liberals believe is doing immense harm to our nation, it's citizens and its image via racist, reactionary and backwards-looking politics. Because of far-right extremists, I get scared when I see that hat, to me it signals some form of white supremacy that I need to stay away from. So yes, wearing it at work might make people uncomfortable.
- zeveb 9y ago
  > That hat in particular represents (sometimes fanatical) appreciation for a man that liberals believe is doing immense harm to our nation, it's citizens and its image via racist, reactionary and backwards-looking politics. Of course, many people believed that the previous president was doing immense harm to our nation, its citizens and the world at large … but I don't think many were fired for wearing their Hope & Change or Yes We Can hats … > Because of far-right extremists, I get scared when I see that hat, to me it signals some form of white supremacy that I need to stay away from. So yes, wearing it at work might make people uncomfortable. And yet people have no problem whatsoever bringing stuff expressing the opposite viewpoint into the workplace. It's normal to hear people expressing moderately- and far-left opinions in the workplace. It's not to hear them express even centrist-right opinions. FWIW, I don't subscribe to pretty much anything a MAGA hat conveys, and I didn't vote for the current president.
  - hasbroslasher 9y ago
    I mean, I'm not saying anyone should be fired, but people should understand the context of their fashion choices and the persona they cultivate. Aside: conservatives like to say "life's not fair" until it comes to things like this. FWIW I occasionally express centrist positions at my left-leaning job, I don't get fired or reprimanded. Nor do I get reprimanded for advocating for socialism. I don't think anyone would be either for expressing conservative positions. Maybe I'm naive. They might, however, face social sanctions or get in an awkward debate if they were arguing that two people on my team should not be allowed in this country as immigrants, or that my gay coworkers shouldn't have the same rights as everyone else. There's obviously going to be a clash of beliefs and they should recognize that. Similarly, if any of us were to make sweeping generalizations about white people, it'd be awkward for the white people on the team, and it might spur a big debate. No one likes to feel attacked, especially at work, so we learn to feel out what's allowed or what's out of bounds and then work with that. Without a doubt, if one of my coworkers came to me and said "Look, I like working with you but you have to stop shit talking conservatives at work" I'd be more mindful of it and avoid making it awkward. I'm not sure why these men feel that they aren't able to do that.
  - 9y ago
Blackthorn 9y ago
"don't favor liberal immigration policy" is not the same thing as Trump policy.
CalChris 9y ago
It's not like I have much of respect for out conservatives but I have even less for closeted conservatives when I eventually find out. Got the hat? Wear it and defend your ideas. I am open minded and rational, or at least I think I am. But if you think I'm stamping out heresy because I don't tolerate bigotry, tough. BTW, my paternal grandfather was an illegal. Paid his taxes. Stayed out of jail. The grand kids, at least on this half, have been amazingly successful and contributed a lot to the economy, society and our national defense.
- majormajor 9y ago
  I don't have the hat or the beliefs, but way to illustrate that you can't even imagine someone being able to understand opposing positions. You certainly don't sound open minded or rational, since you're assuming bigotry could be the only possible root belief for similar policy goals. How you want to react is your business, but again, you should be aware that it's going to impact how effective your fight against those views is.
  - CalChris 9y ago
    No, I'm not going to imagine anything. You actually have to say what you stand for.
    - stale2002 9y ago
      > I have even less for closeted conservatives when I eventually find out. > I don't tolerate bigotry, tough. > No, I'm not going to imagine anything. You just did, man. I'd be afraid to express my views around you, as anything that approaches conservatism will be labeled as "Bigotry", and therefore "not tolerated". Whos knows what opinions you are throwing under the bus. Best to not risk it. It is perfectly rational for someone to not express their opinions around someone who is going to misinterpret them.
      - CalChris 9y ago
        Sorry cupcake, but you should be afraid to express your views around me because I will force you to defend them. After y'all voted in Cheeto, no more Mister Nice Guy.

BeetleB 9y ago

>The MAGA platform is associated with explicitly barring some of them from the country. That's essentially saying that people have to agree with the whole platform or none of it. As an example, there are many liberals who voted for Obama and did not agree with all aspects of the platform (healthcare reform or military policies). Would wearing a "Yes, we can" shirt/hat be offensive, then? That kind of argument seems very reductionist. Finally, the very format of your question is problematic, for two reasons. First, making claims that someone is trying to offend by wearing a slogan is what is referred to as "attribution of intention". Instead of having a dialog about it, you're concluding the person's intention. As someone who has often been on the receiving end of that (I'm sure we all have on divisive issues), that is very offensive. Second, this type of reasoning is what I often call, "From ignorance comes uncertainty." You are indirectly admitting you cannot understand any other reason someone would act in a certain way, and then imply you know the "true" reason. Usually such statements are phrased as "I cannot think of a good reason X would do it, therefore it must be because of Y". I'll grant that you did not use this exact template, and if your question really was borne out of curiosity, I apologize for my own "attribution of intent". But I do hope I have given you something to think about on the topic in question.

colanderman 9y ago
False equivalence. (There's a lot of that in the Trump age.) Obama never explicitly ran on a platform of implementing a policy which would immediately destroy the livelihood of upstanding individuals based on their identity or associations. (See: Muslim ban, immigration policy, transgender ban.)
- BeetleB 9y ago
  >Obama never explicitly ran on a platform of implementing a policy which would immediately destroy the livelihood of upstanding individuals based on their identity or associations. He did, however, run on a platform that was about escalating a conflict in another part of the world, and did implement it, and many people did end up being killed, which is a lot more than what Trump did.

chippy 9y ago

The article suggests the novel view that showing one's political side in the workplace should not be considered offensive nor for it to be taken personally.

colanderman 9y ago
Hard to not take someone's political views personally if they would destroy your livelihood, personally. I am lucky to be a citizen. Were I an Iranian green card holder visiting family abroad when the first Muslim travel ban was implemented? I would now be facing losing my job and my home. A transgender member of the armed forces now? Facing losing my livelihood in a matter of months. An undocumented immigrant who is the only support for his documented family? Now the entire family is homeless and fatherless. At best this argument applies to Hillary/Obama through some hand-waving abstract argument about environmental regulations and international trade agreements that ignores economic opportunities created by their policies. Someone banned from their livelihood because of their identity has no recourse.