3 ms·

Call me cynical, but: Anything that threatens the current way of life, the current status quo, or is representative of a school of thought that clashes with the

by mfoy_ 9y ago

Call me cynical, but: Anything that threatens the current way of life, the current status quo, or is representative of a school of thought that clashes with the aforementioned can cause cognitive dissonance. Simple as that. Many people don't really believe that driving is wrong, or harmful. But supporting radical infrastructure changes to accommodate an alternative means admitting to that to a further extent that most people are comfortable with.

mrybczyn 9y ago
Nothing wrong with driving. Just drive appropriately. Car sharing. Taxi / Uber. Hybrids. Electric cars. Self driving cars. The freedom to transport yourself is a powerful force for good, and socialized public transport and bikes are not a real solution in many / most places. (am a biker, love biking, only commute by bike to work 3 months of the year)
- yason 9y ago
  Driving with shared cars, Uber, hybrids, evs, and self-driving cars doesn't fix the one and ultimate problem with cars in cities: space. A person walking needs maybe 0.5m². Self-driving electric Uber still needs ~50-60 m² of space per vehicle in moving traffic. Plus parking. And if we allocate enough space for people to drive in the first place they can only drive to places. The distances grow too long for biking and walking.
- ufo 9y ago
  Cheaper taxis and self driving cars should reduce the need for parking space but I would expect that it would result in more cars using the road overall.
- photojosh 9y ago
  > (am a biker, love biking, only commute by bike to work 3 months of the year) Living somewhere where I commute by bike (or run!) every single workday, I'm curious as to what limits you to 3 months.
  - keerthiko 9y ago
    Weather. Boston for example has three months that the casual commuter would find tolerable.
    - pen2l 9y ago
      But that's not because of the weather, but rather what the conditions are of the bike infrastructure in that weather. I think Amsterdam weather isn't very substantially different from Boston's... but in Boston winter weather bike lanes are practically un-existent when snow-plowing trucks have cleared the snow for cars to the area where bike lane would be (if it even exists to begin with). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston#Climate
      - photojosh 9y ago
        Thanks for the info. I can imagine you do NOT want to share the roads with cars in those conditions.
watwut 9y ago
Driving is neither wrong nor harmful. And if you want that bike acceptance, maybe talk about advantages without framing everyone else as "bad". If you do, you are guaranteed to create yet another pointless culture war instead of damm bike lane.
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  Driving in anything but mass transport or bikes is vastly energy inefficient. Even if you're driving a fully electric vehicle. If you wish to explore how much, check out the good site: withouthotair.com chapter 3.
- fulafel 9y ago
  Driving is wrong and harmful because it advances global warming.
- latch 9y ago
  It is harmful, isn't it? It pollutes, impacting health and the environment. It requires a lot of infrastructure (roads, parking, salting, ....) that is costly to maintain. I feel like I could go on (road-related injuries, manufacturing sustainability, ...).
- Fricken 9y ago
  If you play good cop, then you're easy to dismiss. If you play bad cop, then you're 'guaranteed to create another pointless culture war'. You can't win. But jumping the shark with the personal automobile is certainly wrong and harmful. From a social standpoint it manufactures inequality. Access to effective transportation is the single greatest factor in determining an individual's opportunity for upward economic mobility. And if you live in a world built for cars and can't drive, well, fuck you. It's environmentally destructive. This one's easy, but it's important to note that it isn't just the emissions from the tailpipe, it's all the sprawl and infrastructure built to accomodate the car. Mankind has chalked up a lot of black marks in it's short history, but rendering the biosphere uninhabitable? That takes the cake. In the grand scheme of things, what the hell are we doing if we aren't at least making a nominal effort to leave the place in better condition than it was when we arrived? Economically it's bad for us too. James Kunstler called the suburbs 'the greatest misallocation of resources in the history of western civilization'. When I first read that it struck me as a sensational and hyperbolic statement, but after having it knock around in my head for a few years, I don't think it is an outrageous claim to make. One of the inherent contradictions of human nature is that we're surprisingly adaptable, yet stubbornly resistant to change. Nobody likes to be told they're doing it wrong, but what else is there to say? You're doing it wrong.

by mfoy_ 9y ago

mrybczyn 9y ago

Nothing wrong with driving. Just drive appropriately. Car sharing. Taxi / Uber. Hybrids. Electric cars. Self driving cars. The freedom to transport yourself is a powerful force for good, and socialized public transport and bikes are not a real solution in many / most places. (am a biker, love biking, only commute by bike to work 3 months of the year)

yason 9y ago
Driving with shared cars, Uber, hybrids, evs, and self-driving cars doesn't fix the one and ultimate problem with cars in cities: space. A person walking needs maybe 0.5m². Self-driving electric Uber still needs ~50-60 m² of space per vehicle in moving traffic. Plus parking. And if we allocate enough space for people to drive in the first place they can only drive to places. The distances grow too long for biking and walking.
ufo 9y ago
Cheaper taxis and self driving cars should reduce the need for parking space but I would expect that it would result in more cars using the road overall.
photojosh 9y ago
> (am a biker, love biking, only commute by bike to work 3 months of the year) Living somewhere where I commute by bike (or run!) every single workday, I'm curious as to what limits you to 3 months.
- keerthiko 9y ago
  Weather. Boston for example has three months that the casual commuter would find tolerable.
  - pen2l 9y ago
    But that's not because of the weather, but rather what the conditions are of the bike infrastructure in that weather. I think Amsterdam weather isn't very substantially different from Boston's... but in Boston winter weather bike lanes are practically un-existent when snow-plowing trucks have cleared the snow for cars to the area where bike lane would be (if it even exists to begin with). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston#Climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston#Climate
    - photojosh 9y ago
      Thanks for the info. I can imagine you do NOT want to share the roads with cars in those conditions.

watwut 9y ago

Driving is neither wrong nor harmful. And if you want that bike acceptance, maybe talk about advantages without framing everyone else as "bad". If you do, you are guaranteed to create yet another pointless culture war instead of damm bike lane.

AstralStorm 9y ago
Driving in anything but mass transport or bikes is vastly energy inefficient. Even if you're driving a fully electric vehicle. If you wish to explore how much, check out the good site: withouthotair.com chapter 3.
fulafel 9y ago
Driving is wrong and harmful because it advances global warming.
latch 9y ago
It is harmful, isn't it? It pollutes, impacting health and the environment. It requires a lot of infrastructure (roads, parking, salting, ....) that is costly to maintain. I feel like I could go on (road-related injuries, manufacturing sustainability, ...).
Fricken 9y ago
If you play good cop, then you're easy to dismiss. If you play bad cop, then you're 'guaranteed to create another pointless culture war'. You can't win. But jumping the shark with the personal automobile is certainly wrong and harmful. From a social standpoint it manufactures inequality. Access to effective transportation is the single greatest factor in determining an individual's opportunity for upward economic mobility. And if you live in a world built for cars and can't drive, well, fuck you. It's environmentally destructive. This one's easy, but it's important to note that it isn't just the emissions from the tailpipe, it's all the sprawl and infrastructure built to accomodate the car. Mankind has chalked up a lot of black marks in it's short history, but rendering the biosphere uninhabitable? That takes the cake. In the grand scheme of things, what the hell are we doing if we aren't at least making a nominal effort to leave the place in better condition than it was when we arrived? Economically it's bad for us too. James Kunstler called the suburbs 'the greatest misallocation of resources in the history of western civilization'. When I first read that it struck me as a sensational and hyperbolic statement, but after having it knock around in my head for a few years, I don't think it is an outrageous claim to make. One of the inherent contradictions of human nature is that we're surprisingly adaptable, yet stubbornly resistant to change. Nobody likes to be told they're doing it wrong, but what else is there to say? You're doing it wrong.