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Ok, what if Baidu started openly campaigning against the predominantly two-party system in the US? Is that going to change a thing? There's actually a way to a

by cglee 16y ago

Ok, what if Baidu started openly campaigning against the predominantly two-party system in the US? Is that going to change a thing? There's actually a way to affect change in China, believe it or not. Unfortunately, it's not by the usual methods Americans believe to be effective (protests, marches, general upheaval, etc). IMO, the best way to engage China is by using back-channels to express concerns while helping the Chinese government save face in public.

hugh3 16y ago
Ok, what if Baidu started openly campaigning against the predominantly two-party system in the US? Is that going to change a thing? No, because there's no pent-up demand within America to overthrow democracy. There's actually a way to affect change in China, believe it or not. Unfortunately, it's not by the usual methods Americans believe to be effective (protests, marches, general upheaval, etc). I'm not sure what the best way to overthrow the Chinese dictatorship is, but looking at the models which worked in Russia or Argentina or Spain or Indonesia or... well, any of the other dozens of countries which have transitioned from dictatorship to democracy. Has any country ever made the transition without some kind of mass protest movement or an external invasion? (The latter option is off the table.) I don't think the present system of back-channel polite tut-tutting is working very well.
- cglee 16y ago
  First, I don't think there's a pent up demand to overthrow the Chinese government. There are disgruntled factions here and there (China is a very economically uneven country, unlike the US), but overall, people feel their lives are improving and there's an immense sense of optimism in the country. Second, China doesn't have a dictatorship.
  - hugh3 16y ago
    They have a "government" which wasn't elected. If you claim sovereignty over a bunch of land and its people, and you haven't been elected by those people as their representative, then you are not a legitimate government, you're merely a bunch of armed thugs who happen to control some territory. (I have no interest in debating whether your definition of "dictatorship" varies from mine.) Getting rid of folks who claim sovereignty over a nation without the expressed and open consent of its people is, as I see it, the great moral challenge of the 21st century, much as ending slavery was the great moral challenge of the 19th.
    - joubert 16y ago
      Getting rid of folks who claim sovereignty over a nation without the expressed and open consent of its people is This actually happened with the French Revolution (1789 - 1799). Life before that was very different to what we have today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
    - quadhome 16y ago
      Were the majority of governments in human history, many lasting hundreds of years and immensely beneficial to their populaces, not legitimate? And dare I ask what was the great moral challenge of the 20th?
      - Ardit20 16y ago
        Fighting fundamentally bad ideas.
    - VBprogrammer 16y ago
      Actually in many democratic nations more than 50% (due to first past the post style voting) did not want the ruling faction in power. If an unelected government can achieve the same percentage of satisfaction (without violence of course) then I fail to see how they are any less legitimate.
    - potatolicious 16y ago
      So every single government in the history of mankind, up until the last couple of hundred years, has been illegitimate? The legitimate sovereign is the one the people permit to exist - if the Chinese government's rule was that of the iron fist against the vast majority who are itching for revolution, then sure, you might have a point. But this is not how China is right now - there is no pent-up demand for revolution, and the people campaigning against the government are a vanishingly small minority at best.
    - apower 16y ago
      By your logic, U.S. government are a bunch of armed thugs who happen to control some territory. 50% of the U.S. population aren't voting. 50% of the remaining 50% decides the next government. Basically 25% of the population impose their will on the rest of the 75% of people. That's tyranny. In Civil War era, the Southern States had democratically voted to leave the Union. The North ignored the democratic result and went to war to bring them back, killing half of millions in the process. The Southern States had voted democratically, with super majority, to keep blacks as slaves. By your logic, that's just a-ok. Some democracy at work.
pavlov 16y ago
There's actually a way to affect change in China, believe it or not. Unfortunately, it's not by the usual methods Americans believe to be effective (protests, marches, general upheaval, etc). If these methods are entirely ineffective, why is the Chinese government so afraid of letting the 1989 Tiananmen events be public knowledge?
- cglee 16y ago
  The Chinese government is extremely sensitive to two things: 1) saving face and 2) maintaining control What I'm saying is - you can affect change without violating those two things.

by cglee 16y ago

hugh3 16y ago

Ok, what if Baidu started openly campaigning against the predominantly two-party system in the US? Is that going to change a thing? No, because there's no pent-up demand within America to overthrow democracy. There's actually a way to affect change in China, believe it or not. Unfortunately, it's not by the usual methods Americans believe to be effective (protests, marches, general upheaval, etc). I'm not sure what the best way to overthrow the Chinese dictatorship is, but looking at the models which worked in Russia or Argentina or Spain or Indonesia or... well, any of the other dozens of countries which have transitioned from dictatorship to democracy. Has any country ever made the transition without some kind of mass protest movement or an external invasion? (The latter option is off the table.) I don't think the present system of back-channel polite tut-tutting is working very well.

cglee 16y ago
First, I don't think there's a pent up demand to overthrow the Chinese government. There are disgruntled factions here and there (China is a very economically uneven country, unlike the US), but overall, people feel their lives are improving and there's an immense sense of optimism in the country. Second, China doesn't have a dictatorship.
- hugh3 16y ago
  They have a "government" which wasn't elected. If you claim sovereignty over a bunch of land and its people, and you haven't been elected by those people as their representative, then you are not a legitimate government, you're merely a bunch of armed thugs who happen to control some territory. (I have no interest in debating whether your definition of "dictatorship" varies from mine.) Getting rid of folks who claim sovereignty over a nation without the expressed and open consent of its people is, as I see it, the great moral challenge of the 21st century, much as ending slavery was the great moral challenge of the 19th.
  - joubert 16y ago
    Getting rid of folks who claim sovereignty over a nation without the expressed and open consent of its people is This actually happened with the French Revolution (1789 - 1799). Life before that was very different to what we have today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
  - quadhome 16y ago
    Were the majority of governments in human history, many lasting hundreds of years and immensely beneficial to their populaces, not legitimate? And dare I ask what was the great moral challenge of the 20th?
    - Ardit20 16y ago
      Fighting fundamentally bad ideas.
  - VBprogrammer 16y ago
    Actually in many democratic nations more than 50% (due to first past the post style voting) did not want the ruling faction in power. If an unelected government can achieve the same percentage of satisfaction (without violence of course) then I fail to see how they are any less legitimate.
  - potatolicious 16y ago
    So every single government in the history of mankind, up until the last couple of hundred years, has been illegitimate? The legitimate sovereign is the one the people permit to exist - if the Chinese government's rule was that of the iron fist against the vast majority who are itching for revolution, then sure, you might have a point. But this is not how China is right now - there is no pent-up demand for revolution, and the people campaigning against the government are a vanishingly small minority at best.
  - apower 16y ago
    By your logic, U.S. government are a bunch of armed thugs who happen to control some territory. 50% of the U.S. population aren't voting. 50% of the remaining 50% decides the next government. Basically 25% of the population impose their will on the rest of the 75% of people. That's tyranny. In Civil War era, the Southern States had democratically voted to leave the Union. The North ignored the democratic result and went to war to bring them back, killing half of millions in the process. The Southern States had voted democratically, with super majority, to keep blacks as slaves. By your logic, that's just a-ok. Some democracy at work.

pavlov 16y ago

There's actually a way to affect change in China, believe it or not. Unfortunately, it's not by the usual methods Americans believe to be effective (protests, marches, general upheaval, etc). If these methods are entirely ineffective, why is the Chinese government so afraid of letting the 1989 Tiananmen events be public knowledge?

cglee 16y ago
The Chinese government is extremely sensitive to two things: 1) saving face and 2) maintaining control What I'm saying is - you can affect change without violating those two things.