4 ms·

While that is true, it's not like C++ and Java are the torchbearers of static typing. Much better type systems exist than those of C++ and Java and basing your

by pkd 9y ago

While that is true, it's not like C++ and Java are the torchbearers of static typing. Much better type systems exist than those of C++ and Java and basing your worldview of static typing just on the experience with these two is shortsighted.

james-mcelwain 9y ago
Right, but most of the statically typed code in the world is written in C++, Java, etc. If you're presenting Clojure to your organization, the choice isn't going to be Clojure vs Haskell/Idris, it's going to be Clojure vs Java. The sort of boosters for static typing in this domain are the AbstractSingletonProxyFactoryBean people. I think defenders of static typing have at least some burden to defend "actual existing type systems" rather than immediately falling back to "well, in Haskell..."
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- willtim 9y ago
  What makes you assume Haskell is somehow more niche than Clojure? I would say it depends on the domain. Haskell is certainly more mature (~30 years) and has a lot more tutorials and literature.
  - hnbroseph 9y ago
    > Haskell is certainly more mature (~30 years) and has a lot more tutorials and literature. and yet, still, nobody outside the gated community has any idea wtf a monad is. :(
    - hellofunk 9y ago
      I was surprised to see Haskell in widespread use at several large enterprise companies in Singapore.
      - willtim 9y ago
        Yes 40+ fulltime Haskell devs in London and Singapore at Standard Chartered, with many other users writing Haskell.
    - willtim 9y ago
      Many universities outside of the US teach functional programming and Haskell. The community is open, international and a healthy mix between industry and academia.
  - james-mcelwain 9y ago
    I totally agree that it depends on domain, but I think that's part of the point -- making these comparisons, i.e. Clojure vs Haskell in the abstract aren't particularly interesting, as it seems obvious that no general purpose language is perfectly general for every purpose.
  - ellyagg 9y ago
    It runs on the Java runtime and interops seamlessly with Java which are two big factors in its favor.
- pkd 9y ago
  Even if we assume that your point is true, Hickey wasn't comparing Clojure's type system specifically with only C++/Java. He was making a general point about static vs dynamic typing. He even mentioned Haskell and C++ in the same sentence to make a point about statically typed languages. When you are comparing the best of dynamic typing, you should compare that with the best of static typing else the competition is lopsided by specification. And it's not a fallback on "well, in Haskell". It's not like more "hip" languages can't adopt some of the best ideas from Haskell and OCaml to make their type systems better. Modern languages have already started doing this - Rust for example. It's about learning from research and making the consumer product better. It's a fact that Haskell/OCaml will never be on the top of the TIOBE index, but they can certainly influence those who are. Making ill-informed (I can only assume ignorance at best here) blanket statements like Hickey did in _this_ particular talk doesn't help the programming language community.

by pkd 9y ago

james-mcelwain 9y ago

Right, but most of the statically typed code in the world is written in C++, Java, etc. If you're presenting Clojure to your organization, the choice isn't going to be Clojure vs Haskell/Idris, it's going to be Clojure vs Java. The sort of boosters for static typing in this domain are the AbstractSingletonProxyFactoryBean people. I think defenders of static typing have at least some burden to defend "actual existing type systems" rather than immediately falling back to "well, in Haskell..."

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
willtim 9y ago
What makes you assume Haskell is somehow more niche than Clojure? I would say it depends on the domain. Haskell is certainly more mature (~30 years) and has a lot more tutorials and literature.
- hnbroseph 9y ago
  > Haskell is certainly more mature (~30 years) and has a lot more tutorials and literature. and yet, still, nobody outside the gated community has any idea wtf a monad is. :(
  - hellofunk 9y ago
    I was surprised to see Haskell in widespread use at several large enterprise companies in Singapore.
    - willtim 9y ago
      Yes 40+ fulltime Haskell devs in London and Singapore at Standard Chartered, with many other users writing Haskell.
  - willtim 9y ago
    Many universities outside of the US teach functional programming and Haskell. The community is open, international and a healthy mix between industry and academia.
- james-mcelwain 9y ago
  I totally agree that it depends on domain, but I think that's part of the point -- making these comparisons, i.e. Clojure vs Haskell in the abstract aren't particularly interesting, as it seems obvious that no general purpose language is perfectly general for every purpose.
- ellyagg 9y ago
  It runs on the Java runtime and interops seamlessly with Java which are two big factors in its favor.
pkd 9y ago
Even if we assume that your point is true, Hickey wasn't comparing Clojure's type system specifically with only C++/Java. He was making a general point about static vs dynamic typing. He even mentioned Haskell and C++ in the same sentence to make a point about statically typed languages. When you are comparing the best of dynamic typing, you should compare that with the best of static typing else the competition is lopsided by specification. And it's not a fallback on "well, in Haskell". It's not like more "hip" languages can't adopt some of the best ideas from Haskell and OCaml to make their type systems better. Modern languages have already started doing this - Rust for example. It's about learning from research and making the consumer product better. It's a fact that Haskell/OCaml will never be on the top of the TIOBE index, but they can certainly influence those who are. Making ill-informed (I can only assume ignorance at best here) blanket statements like Hickey did in _this_ particular talk doesn't help the programming language community.