5 ms·

I would love to see Google start directly and openly campaigning for the downfall of the Chinese one-party state and the introduction of democracy. Not only is

by hugh3 16y ago

I would love to see Google start directly and openly campaigning for the downfall of the Chinese one-party state and the introduction of democracy. Not only is it about damn time somebody with deep pockets did, it's practically demanded by their obligation to maximise shareholder returns. If the servicing of one billion potential customers is incompatible with "Don't Be Evil" due to the existence of the Chinese Communist Party, then the Chinese Communist Party needs to be swept out of the way so they can reach those customers. The US Government is too chickenshit to stand up for democratic principles when it comes to China, but Google has nothing to lose any more. I say go for it.

pl0nk 16y ago
Thank you -- with this comment I finally realized that I have no need to read HN.
- hugh3 16y ago
  How's that, exactly?
  - mediaman 16y ago
    Because comments are like chain links: the strength of the best is limited by the worst. (Facetious, obviously; while I disagree with your parent comment because Google has far too little influence in China to effect any change, a response declaring the whole of HN rotten is nothing more than a non sequitur; "Good riddance!" I say.)
    - hugh3 16y ago
      while I disagree with your parent comment because Google has far too little influence in China to effect any change Ah, now that's a good argument! That's the argument I'll probably make against myself when I'm less caught up in libertarian fervour. A sober cost-benefit analysis may reveal that google can't possibly do enough to hasten the downfall of the Chinese regime to make it worthwhile. Still, we have yet to consider the question of what they could actually do. Email every Chinese citizen? Fly the Goo-Jet over Chinese airspace dragging a banner? Radio transmissions across the border? Who knows? Can't do a cost-benefit analysis until you've thought through strategy. What is the best way to spend, say, a billion dollars in order to bring down a regime?
      - Ardit20 16y ago
        How on earth can you be libertarian and propose aggressive intervention in other people's affairs? A libertarian wants freedom to be his own adult, what you are proposing is saving the 'children' by bringing in some tough nanny.
cglee 16y ago
Ok, what if Baidu started openly campaigning against the predominantly two-party system in the US? Is that going to change a thing? There's actually a way to affect change in China, believe it or not. Unfortunately, it's not by the usual methods Americans believe to be effective (protests, marches, general upheaval, etc). IMO, the best way to engage China is by using back-channels to express concerns while helping the Chinese government save face in public.
- hugh3 16y ago
  Ok, what if Baidu started openly campaigning against the predominantly two-party system in the US? Is that going to change a thing? No, because there's no pent-up demand within America to overthrow democracy. There's actually a way to affect change in China, believe it or not. Unfortunately, it's not by the usual methods Americans believe to be effective (protests, marches, general upheaval, etc). I'm not sure what the best way to overthrow the Chinese dictatorship is, but looking at the models which worked in Russia or Argentina or Spain or Indonesia or... well, any of the other dozens of countries which have transitioned from dictatorship to democracy. Has any country ever made the transition without some kind of mass protest movement or an external invasion? (The latter option is off the table.) I don't think the present system of back-channel polite tut-tutting is working very well.
  - cglee 16y ago
    First, I don't think there's a pent up demand to overthrow the Chinese government. There are disgruntled factions here and there (China is a very economically uneven country, unlike the US), but overall, people feel their lives are improving and there's an immense sense of optimism in the country. Second, China doesn't have a dictatorship.
    - hugh3 16y ago
      They have a "government" which wasn't elected. If you claim sovereignty over a bunch of land and its people, and you haven't been elected by those people as their representative, then you are not a legitimate government, you're merely a bunch of armed thugs who happen to control some territory. (I have no interest in debating whether your definition of "dictatorship" varies from mine.) Getting rid of folks who claim sovereignty over a nation without the expressed and open consent of its people is, as I see it, the great moral challenge of the 21st century, much as ending slavery was the great moral challenge of the 19th.
fmora 16y ago
This is the type of attitude that got us into two huge wars and the reason why so many people hate us so much. You are probably one of those people that also believe in white supremacy and that would join the KKK in a heart beat. Stupid Moron. The best way to deal with this is by the US blocking some of the chinese companies ability to do business here in the USA. Or something similar to that. But not by us getting involved in their political process. They have to solve their own problems.
- MartinCron 16y ago
  You really can't follow "No offense" with "Stupid Moron" and calls of racism. I thought the culture here was to disagree politely?
  - fmora 16y ago
    I updated my comment to remove the "No offense". Somebody has to call this for what it is.
    - coderdude 16y ago
      There's nothing racist about his comment. He didn't say anything about the Chinese people. Going on about white supremacy and the Ku-Klux Klan is just ignorance on your part. Quite frankly I find your comment to be the racist one.
      - fmora 16y ago
        This is how it starts though. How do you think the British justified taken the lands from Native Americans? By saying that they were savages and a lot of other rationalizations. This is the first step towards that slippery slope. Once everybody is convinced that going into China and messing with their political affairs is OK then we will raise it up a notch. This is how its always done. His comment may seem innocuous to you but this type of comments are only the beginning of something more perverse.
kiba 16y ago
The US Government is too chickenshit to stand up for democratic principles when it comes to China, but Google has nothing to lose any more. I say go for it. I don't care about democracies, but I do care about liberty.
- hugh3 16y ago
  As I see it, democracy is both a means to the end of ensuring (relative, in fits and starts) liberty, and an end in itself. Nobody can rightfully claim to be entitled to make and enforce laws for a group of people unless they were chosen by that group of people. Claiming otherwise is like claiming that person A is entitled to own person B as a slave just because person A is a relatively good slavemaster.
  - kiba 16y ago
    As I see it, democracy is both a means to the end of ensuring (relative, in fits and starts) liberty, and an end in itself. Nobody can rightfully claim to be entitled to make and enforce laws for a group of people unless they were chosen by that group of people. Claiming otherwise is like claiming that person A is entitled to own person B as a slave just because person A is a relatively good slavemaster. This is a fundamental disagreement in political philosophy and let we disagree on that. Mine is based on the concept of the sovereignty of the individual, not the group. To add a little bit information, I am an individualist anarchist. Thus, I place my hope in things like pananarchism(seasteading), or agorism, anything, other than trust people with political power. It might not work out, but I developed a deep distrust for democratic institutions.
    - SoftwareMaven 16y ago
      I think a deep distrust of democratic institutions would be the best thing democracy proponents (and those living in democratic governments) could cultivate.
  - Qz 16y ago
    Learn a little about 'democracy' and you'll see that in practice it doesn't really bring us any closer to true individual liberty than the old era of Kings and Queens.
Qz 16y ago
Your mistake is in thinking that US Government is interested in democratic principles rather than 'democratic principles'.
gojomo 16y ago
If Google devoted itself to the downfall of the CCP, then the CCP would quite naturally retaliate against Google. Governments traditionally use deadly force to protect themselves from overthrow. It's one of the things that make them special compared to other corporations! Are you suggesting Google field an armed military? Do you think Page/Brin/Schmidt can be the William Walker [1] of the 21st century? China may be harder to 'liberate' than 1856 Nicaragua. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Walker_%28filibuster%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Walker_%28filibuster%29

by hugh3 16y ago

pl0nk 16y ago

Thank you -- with this comment I finally realized that I have no need to read HN.

hugh3 16y ago
How's that, exactly?
- mediaman 16y ago
  Because comments are like chain links: the strength of the best is limited by the worst. (Facetious, obviously; while I disagree with your parent comment because Google has far too little influence in China to effect any change, a response declaring the whole of HN rotten is nothing more than a non sequitur; "Good riddance!" I say.)
  - hugh3 16y ago
    while I disagree with your parent comment because Google has far too little influence in China to effect any change Ah, now that's a good argument! That's the argument I'll probably make against myself when I'm less caught up in libertarian fervour. A sober cost-benefit analysis may reveal that google can't possibly do enough to hasten the downfall of the Chinese regime to make it worthwhile. Still, we have yet to consider the question of what they could actually do. Email every Chinese citizen? Fly the Goo-Jet over Chinese airspace dragging a banner? Radio transmissions across the border? Who knows? Can't do a cost-benefit analysis until you've thought through strategy. What is the best way to spend, say, a billion dollars in order to bring down a regime?
    - Ardit20 16y ago
      How on earth can you be libertarian and propose aggressive intervention in other people's affairs? A libertarian wants freedom to be his own adult, what you are proposing is saving the 'children' by bringing in some tough nanny.

cglee 16y ago

Ok, what if Baidu started openly campaigning against the predominantly two-party system in the US? Is that going to change a thing? There's actually a way to affect change in China, believe it or not. Unfortunately, it's not by the usual methods Americans believe to be effective (protests, marches, general upheaval, etc). IMO, the best way to engage China is by using back-channels to express concerns while helping the Chinese government save face in public.

hugh3 16y ago
Ok, what if Baidu started openly campaigning against the predominantly two-party system in the US? Is that going to change a thing? No, because there's no pent-up demand within America to overthrow democracy. There's actually a way to affect change in China, believe it or not. Unfortunately, it's not by the usual methods Americans believe to be effective (protests, marches, general upheaval, etc). I'm not sure what the best way to overthrow the Chinese dictatorship is, but looking at the models which worked in Russia or Argentina or Spain or Indonesia or... well, any of the other dozens of countries which have transitioned from dictatorship to democracy. Has any country ever made the transition without some kind of mass protest movement or an external invasion? (The latter option is off the table.) I don't think the present system of back-channel polite tut-tutting is working very well.
- cglee 16y ago
  First, I don't think there's a pent up demand to overthrow the Chinese government. There are disgruntled factions here and there (China is a very economically uneven country, unlike the US), but overall, people feel their lives are improving and there's an immense sense of optimism in the country. Second, China doesn't have a dictatorship.
  - hugh3 16y ago
    They have a "government" which wasn't elected. If you claim sovereignty over a bunch of land and its people, and you haven't been elected by those people as their representative, then you are not a legitimate government, you're merely a bunch of armed thugs who happen to control some territory. (I have no interest in debating whether your definition of "dictatorship" varies from mine.) Getting rid of folks who claim sovereignty over a nation without the expressed and open consent of its people is, as I see it, the great moral challenge of the 21st century, much as ending slavery was the great moral challenge of the 19th.

fmora 16y ago

This is the type of attitude that got us into two huge wars and the reason why so many people hate us so much. You are probably one of those people that also believe in white supremacy and that would join the KKK in a heart beat. Stupid Moron. The best way to deal with this is by the US blocking some of the chinese companies ability to do business here in the USA. Or something similar to that. But not by us getting involved in their political process. They have to solve their own problems.

MartinCron 16y ago
You really can't follow "No offense" with "Stupid Moron" and calls of racism. I thought the culture here was to disagree politely?
- fmora 16y ago
  I updated my comment to remove the "No offense". Somebody has to call this for what it is.
  - coderdude 16y ago
    There's nothing racist about his comment. He didn't say anything about the Chinese people. Going on about white supremacy and the Ku-Klux Klan is just ignorance on your part. Quite frankly I find your comment to be the racist one.
    - fmora 16y ago
      This is how it starts though. How do you think the British justified taken the lands from Native Americans? By saying that they were savages and a lot of other rationalizations. This is the first step towards that slippery slope. Once everybody is convinced that going into China and messing with their political affairs is OK then we will raise it up a notch. This is how its always done. His comment may seem innocuous to you but this type of comments are only the beginning of something more perverse.

kiba 16y ago

The US Government is too chickenshit to stand up for democratic principles when it comes to China, but Google has nothing to lose any more. I say go for it. I don't care about democracies, but I do care about liberty.

hugh3 16y ago
As I see it, democracy is both a means to the end of ensuring (relative, in fits and starts) liberty, and an end in itself. Nobody can rightfully claim to be entitled to make and enforce laws for a group of people unless they were chosen by that group of people. Claiming otherwise is like claiming that person A is entitled to own person B as a slave just because person A is a relatively good slavemaster.
- kiba 16y ago
  As I see it, democracy is both a means to the end of ensuring (relative, in fits and starts) liberty, and an end in itself. Nobody can rightfully claim to be entitled to make and enforce laws for a group of people unless they were chosen by that group of people. Claiming otherwise is like claiming that person A is entitled to own person B as a slave just because person A is a relatively good slavemaster. This is a fundamental disagreement in political philosophy and let we disagree on that. Mine is based on the concept of the sovereignty of the individual, not the group. To add a little bit information, I am an individualist anarchist. Thus, I place my hope in things like pananarchism(seasteading), or agorism, anything, other than trust people with political power. It might not work out, but I developed a deep distrust for democratic institutions.
  - SoftwareMaven 16y ago
    I think a deep distrust of democratic institutions would be the best thing democracy proponents (and those living in democratic governments) could cultivate.
- Qz 16y ago
  Learn a little about 'democracy' and you'll see that in practice it doesn't really bring us any closer to true individual liberty than the old era of Kings and Queens.

Qz 16y ago

Your mistake is in thinking that US Government is interested in democratic principles rather than 'democratic principles'.

gojomo 16y ago

If Google devoted itself to the downfall of the CCP, then the CCP would quite naturally retaliate against Google. Governments traditionally use deadly force to protect themselves from overthrow. It's one of the things that make them special compared to other corporations! Are you suggesting Google field an armed military? Do you think Page/Brin/Schmidt can be the William Walker [1] of the 21st century? China may be harder to 'liberate' than 1856 Nicaragua. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Walker_%28filibuster%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Walker_%28filibuster%29