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You have never worked with someone from Oracle. They do not try to hire remotely the best, they hire cheap. Anyone that can churn out barely functional code,

by ProAm 9y ago

You have never worked with someone from Oracle. They do not try to hire remotely the best, they hire cheap. Anyone that can churn out barely functional code, use their customers to functional test it, and take often half a fiscal year to provide a bug fix for you. Oracle is now more of a technical holding company than a software company, aside from their db, they merely pickup/purchase new companies and wring them out for revenue. Anything Oracle writes themselves is usually terrible.

koolba 9y ago
> You have never worked with someone from Oracle. They do not try to hire remotely the best, they hire cheap. Anyone that can churn out barely functional code, use their customers to functional test it, and take often half a fiscal year to provide a bug fix for you. They have a huge services division and that's the same formula used by all the big players. It's a numbers game for billing and they shoot to make it work by having a few highly competent people cover up for the C- players. > Oracle is now more of a technical holding company than a software company, aside from their db, they merely pickup/purchase new companies and wring them out for revenue. Anything Oracle writes themselves is usually terrible. Spot on. The database is incredible though the use cases I'd recommend it for over open source alternatives has shrunk to nearly nothing. Outside of that, the Oracle App landscape (Financials, HR, ...) are hilariously terrible, especially factoring in the prices paid for it.
- stefantheard 9y ago
  I noticed you said "nearly nothing", what are some exceptions? I'm curious why anyone would start using Oracle now. The only reason I would see to use it is because you are reasonably dependent on it already and cannot migrate easily.
  - GCU-Empiricist 9y ago
    It's telling there are no dissenting replies to this in a thread approaching 200 comments.
  - arethuza 9y ago
    Possibly because you have Oracle apps (e.g. Hyperion FM) and don't really care about what database it requires? Edit: From what I saw Hyperion FM got relatively better after the Oracle acquisition.
    - wenc 9y ago
      > From what I saw Hyperion FM got relatively better after the Oracle acquisition. In my experience the opposite seems to be true. I have heard people describe Hyperion as "pretty good" prior to the acquisition (this was a while ago, before my time). Today, if I talk to anyone about it, sentiments range from negative to very negative. Almost every Oracle acquisition has suffered the same fate.
  - koolba 9y ago
    > I noticed you said "nearly nothing", what are some exceptions? I'm curious why anyone would start using Oracle now. The only reason I would see to use it is because you are reasonably dependent on it already and cannot migrate easily. Ultra high end OLTP system leveraging Oracle RAC. It's a very specific use case that goes beyond basic replication where you require ACID compliance, HA, multi master (in this case via shared disks and distributed locks), all atop an MVCC database. The MVCC implementation of Oracle does not require a VACUUM style operation which is another plus for a 24/7 environment. I know of a couple financial services companies that have this type of setup though I've yet to find one that (IMHO) really justifies it. In all cases they've got boatloads of money to throw at a problem and the guys in charge of making the tech decisions don't mind having one of those boats sail off to Larry Ellison.
    - stefantheard 9y ago
      Interestingly even in this use case I believe PostgreSQL would be my choice, although as you said it is a silly setup. I had not taken into account particularly narrow implementations that rely on specific Oracle pieces, I could see some going that way if that's the case.
  - Yizahi 9y ago
    My guess - government or ultra big corporations orders for very large sums, excessive for required task. Part of the sum goes straight in the pockets of people in charge of ordering it. Won't work in all countries but in some certainly will. Same with SAP and other overpriced solutions. Other idea - "prestige". "We are using top end solutions, unlike the lowly startups, we are serious businessmen see."
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- wenc 9y ago
  > The database is incredible This is something I've heard over the years but I'm not sure if it is still holds true. (I work with Oracle databases daily). Oracle DBMSes are very robust, to be sure, and you can expect them to run forever. But in my mind other databases seems to have caught up and there really isn't a compelling reason to choose Oracle over other commercial databases anymore (also, Oracle pricing is a big deterrent). In terms of performance, Oracle's licensing prohibits any benchmarking, but anecdotally I haven't found it to be particularly performant for most of my queries. Oracle used to be known for the innovative under-the-hood algorithmic improvements to the database, but lately I haven't seen anything too exciting, whereas SQL Server is getting better every year with new innovations (columnstore indices, in-memory features, Polybase, in-database Python/R computations, etc.). > use cases I'd recommend it for over open source alternatives has shrunk to nearly nothing. I agree, though I would say for heavy transactional use cases, I would still choose a commercial database over an open-source one. However, among the commercial databases out there, Oracle would be my last choice. It has too much legacy crud that have to worked around. The only reason Oracle is still around is because (1) In the enterprise, no one gets fired for buying Oracle. (2) fungible expertise in their services organization ensures business continuity, albeit at a lowest common denominator level.
  - jackhack 9y ago
    > Oracle's licensing prohibits any benchmarking That tells me all I need to know.
    - wenc 9y ago
      Forgive my sloppy phrasing, I should be clear: Oracle's license terms prohibit public disclosure of any benchmarks without their consent. So technically you can benchmark in-house, but you can't publish those results without written permission.
      - DarronWyke 9y ago
        That's a lot worse. It's not just prohibition, it's a way to filter out anything negative through license enforcement.
nzmsv 9y ago
Counterpoint: I currently work with someone from Oracle, and they are one of the best programmers I know. "Usually terrible" doesn't mean "always terrible", which is the point of the article.
Garph 9y ago
It's fun to set Oracle up as a punching bag, but this sentiment is what Danluu is discouraging in the blog post. If a resume came across your desk with Oracle as the primary work experience what would you do? Can an individual programmer be help culpable for Oracle's issues?
mbrameld 9y ago
Is a fiscal year longer or shorter than a calendar year?
- ProAm 9y ago
  It depends on what you care about. Do you have a bug that is affecting revenue? Do you pay an annual support/maintenance contract?
- unit91 9y ago
  Technically the same, just with different start dates. But there's a catch: suppose your fiscal year starts Oct 1st, and you request help on August 15th. The answer is often "we're at the end of the fiscal year, but we have approval to start work on that in October". So if it takes half a fiscal year, depending on when you first say you need it, it can be much longer.
GlennS 9y ago
Interesting. Where I live (Bristol, UK), Oracle offers very good salaries compared to the going rate.

by ProAm 9y ago

koolba 9y ago

> You have never worked with someone from Oracle. They do not try to hire remotely the best, they hire cheap. Anyone that can churn out barely functional code, use their customers to functional test it, and take often half a fiscal year to provide a bug fix for you. They have a huge services division and that's the same formula used by all the big players. It's a numbers game for billing and they shoot to make it work by having a few highly competent people cover up for the C- players. > Oracle is now more of a technical holding company than a software company, aside from their db, they merely pickup/purchase new companies and wring them out for revenue. Anything Oracle writes themselves is usually terrible. Spot on. The database is incredible though the use cases I'd recommend it for over open source alternatives has shrunk to nearly nothing. Outside of that, the Oracle App landscape (Financials, HR, ...) are hilariously terrible, especially factoring in the prices paid for it.

stefantheard 9y ago
I noticed you said "nearly nothing", what are some exceptions? I'm curious why anyone would start using Oracle now. The only reason I would see to use it is because you are reasonably dependent on it already and cannot migrate easily.
- GCU-Empiricist 9y ago
  It's telling there are no dissenting replies to this in a thread approaching 200 comments.
- arethuza 9y ago
  Possibly because you have Oracle apps (e.g. Hyperion FM) and don't really care about what database it requires? Edit: From what I saw Hyperion FM got relatively better after the Oracle acquisition.
  - wenc 9y ago
    > From what I saw Hyperion FM got relatively better after the Oracle acquisition. In my experience the opposite seems to be true. I have heard people describe Hyperion as "pretty good" prior to the acquisition (this was a while ago, before my time). Today, if I talk to anyone about it, sentiments range from negative to very negative. Almost every Oracle acquisition has suffered the same fate.
- koolba 9y ago
  > I noticed you said "nearly nothing", what are some exceptions? I'm curious why anyone would start using Oracle now. The only reason I would see to use it is because you are reasonably dependent on it already and cannot migrate easily. Ultra high end OLTP system leveraging Oracle RAC. It's a very specific use case that goes beyond basic replication where you require ACID compliance, HA, multi master (in this case via shared disks and distributed locks), all atop an MVCC database. The MVCC implementation of Oracle does not require a VACUUM style operation which is another plus for a 24/7 environment. I know of a couple financial services companies that have this type of setup though I've yet to find one that (IMHO) really justifies it. In all cases they've got boatloads of money to throw at a problem and the guys in charge of making the tech decisions don't mind having one of those boats sail off to Larry Ellison.
  - stefantheard 9y ago
    Interestingly even in this use case I believe PostgreSQL would be my choice, although as you said it is a silly setup. I had not taken into account particularly narrow implementations that rely on specific Oracle pieces, I could see some going that way if that's the case.
- Yizahi 9y ago
  My guess - government or ultra big corporations orders for very large sums, excessive for required task. Part of the sum goes straight in the pockets of people in charge of ordering it. Won't work in all countries but in some certainly will. Same with SAP and other overpriced solutions. Other idea - "prestige". "We are using top end solutions, unlike the lowly startups, we are serious businessmen see."
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
wenc 9y ago
> The database is incredible This is something I've heard over the years but I'm not sure if it is still holds true. (I work with Oracle databases daily). Oracle DBMSes are very robust, to be sure, and you can expect them to run forever. But in my mind other databases seems to have caught up and there really isn't a compelling reason to choose Oracle over other commercial databases anymore (also, Oracle pricing is a big deterrent). In terms of performance, Oracle's licensing prohibits any benchmarking, but anecdotally I haven't found it to be particularly performant for most of my queries. Oracle used to be known for the innovative under-the-hood algorithmic improvements to the database, but lately I haven't seen anything too exciting, whereas SQL Server is getting better every year with new innovations (columnstore indices, in-memory features, Polybase, in-database Python/R computations, etc.). > use cases I'd recommend it for over open source alternatives has shrunk to nearly nothing. I agree, though I would say for heavy transactional use cases, I would still choose a commercial database over an open-source one. However, among the commercial databases out there, Oracle would be my last choice. It has too much legacy crud that have to worked around. The only reason Oracle is still around is because (1) In the enterprise, no one gets fired for buying Oracle. (2) fungible expertise in their services organization ensures business continuity, albeit at a lowest common denominator level.
- jackhack 9y ago
  > Oracle's licensing prohibits any benchmarking That tells me all I need to know.
  - wenc 9y ago
    Forgive my sloppy phrasing, I should be clear: Oracle's license terms prohibit public disclosure of any benchmarks without their consent. So technically you can benchmark in-house, but you can't publish those results without written permission.
    - DarronWyke 9y ago
      That's a lot worse. It's not just prohibition, it's a way to filter out anything negative through license enforcement.

nzmsv 9y ago

Counterpoint: I currently work with someone from Oracle, and they are one of the best programmers I know. "Usually terrible" doesn't mean "always terrible", which is the point of the article.

Garph 9y ago

It's fun to set Oracle up as a punching bag, but this sentiment is what Danluu is discouraging in the blog post. If a resume came across your desk with Oracle as the primary work experience what would you do? Can an individual programmer be help culpable for Oracle's issues?

mbrameld 9y ago

Is a fiscal year longer or shorter than a calendar year?

ProAm 9y ago
It depends on what you care about. Do you have a bug that is affecting revenue? Do you pay an annual support/maintenance contract?
unit91 9y ago
Technically the same, just with different start dates. But there's a catch: suppose your fiscal year starts Oct 1st, and you request help on August 15th. The answer is often "we're at the end of the fiscal year, but we have approval to start work on that in October". So if it takes half a fiscal year, depending on when you first say you need it, it can be much longer.

GlennS 9y ago

Interesting. Where I live (Bristol, UK), Oracle offers very good salaries compared to the going rate.