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There are advantages to going to college over a boot camp or self learning. In fact, CS and SE degrees are ones that pay for themselves. If you're not willing

There are advantages to going to college over a boot camp or self learning. In fact, CS and SE degrees are ones that pay for themselves. If you're not willing to put in the work, that tells me you won't last long at Google.

dimman 9y ago
Because life can't happen? I don't agree with money > people
- Delmania 9y ago
  Where exactly did I say that was not the case? There are plenty of options for getting a college degree, and there are way to get a job at these companies with needing. However, if you're going to try to get one be sending in your resume, expect to get turned down without a degree. Beyond that, software development is plagued by this mindset that college degrees are useless and that only self taught people are worth looking into. I've worked with many college educated people who can't write good code, and I've worked with many self-taught people who really don't understand what they're doing. The best has always been a person who went to school and then continued on learning after the fact.
  - DarronWyke 9y ago
    >Beyond that, software development is plagued by this mindset that college degrees are useless and that only self taught people are worth looking into. Ugh, yes. I've worked for a leading SIM and smart card manufacturer and they required a 4-year degree to even get in the door. I interviewed countless people, including some who were able to answer some quite technical questions that others couldn't. And many of those had to get disqualified since we found out during the interview process that they didn't have a degree. There were so many degree holders there that didn't know what the hell they were doing, and it was obvious.
    - dimman 9y ago
      One doesn't prove the other, that's my point. The only thing that can be said is that a degree doesn't prove if someone fits a position or not, it only proves they've finished an education. I've also been in the field for many years and held several interviews. My takeaway, to put it a bit clumsy: "knowledge is easy to fix, mindset and experience not as easy."
      - DarronWyke 9y ago
        As I told someone over Twitter the other day: mindset isn't something that can be readily taught, which is why STEM is still so in-demand with a gross labor shortage. For most people it's something you either innately have or don't have. But yeah. I was reinforcing your point, not being counter.
  - dimman 9y ago
    I was referring to "If you're not willing to put in the work...". Some people are more than willing to put in the work but there are things in life that might hinder them from doing so at the time. People take a break in their studies for (various) personal reasons and some end up working in the field despite never finishing to get a degree. "...expect to get turned down without a degree" and "...software development is plagued by this mindset that college degrees are useless ..." My point is that there's a middle way. Only looking at degress is stupid because it doesn't guarantee anything other than that they got a degree. With that in mind it doesn't make sense to instantly disqualify people without a degree either.
wavefunction 9y ago
I had to leave college early due to a family thing and start working to contribute. That was eighteen years ago, and I've put in so much work because I run into attitudes like yours. Of course, in the past twenty four hours I've created an app and potential side-business from a technology stack I had absolutely no experience in any of it just to prove to a potential employer I can do 'front-end' stuff for them. The average developer can't even CSS, don't even play with that 'degrees are the ultimate arbiter' mess.
- Delmania 9y ago
  > Of course, in the past twenty four hours I've created an app and potential side-business from a technology stack I had absolutely no experience in any of it just to prove to a potential employer I can do 'front-end' stuff for them. This tells me you're wasting your time and potential. There are other ways to get a job.
  - wavefunction 9y ago
    They didn't request it, I just didn't have any direct professional experience with React/Redux or the Python ecosystem, which are the lion's share of front-end positions in my area. I've gotten a lot of immediate 'passes' from recruiters unfortunately. Thanks for your reply though, I agree with you but then I run into reality and the need to pay bills.
- eli_gottlieb 9y ago
  >The average developer can't even CSS, What do you mean by that? How sophisticated is it to "do CSS"? When I've dealt with it, you basically look at the inspector and at your CSS libraries of preexisting classes, and basically do a combination of attaching classes and writing new ones with custom styles until you get it all to look right. What should I be looking to learn?
  - CydeWeys 9y ago
    He means do it well. There's a lot to doing CSS well, and frankly I just don't have any interest in learning all the ins and outs. It's not a fun platform to work in, it's very fiddly, and it's not exactly programming either. There's an art-form to doing amazing pixel perfect web designs, and I really respect the people who are good at it. That's not me though, and it's never going to be me.
Datenstrom 9y ago
Being self taught I haven't learned a single thing in college. Besides networking I do not see any advantage. > If you're not willing to put in the work Why should anyone who already knows everything for a degree have to waste 4-6 years of their life?
- Delmania 9y ago
  I'm sure you don't know everything. Looking at your profile, I see the words "technician" so I am thinking you were trained at some point.
  - Datenstrom 9y ago
    Yes the Navy "trained" me by saying "here are 20,000 pages of documentation on the E-2 Airborne Early Warning aircraft avionics, now go fix it". That has nothing to do with my CS studies, of which I have learned nothing from college and could have CLEPed a BS degree on day one if it was possible and moved on to a masters where I should have been initially placed. > I'm sure you don't know everything. I never claimed I knew everything.
    - barry-cotter 9y ago
      It was in fact possible to go straight to a Master’s in Software Engineering. Oxford’s distance Master’s will take experience in place of a degree. https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/softeng/ https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/softeng/
      - klibertp 9y ago
        Is it still possible somewhere, somehow?
        barry-cotter 9y ago
        Yes, the programme is still open, and will be for tyhe foreseeable future.
throwme211345 9y ago
That is complete crap. Programmers have the same ladder as professional athletes. You can be amazing at 17 or 36 without collegiate training and indoctrination.

dimman 9y ago

Because life can't happen? I don't agree with money > people

Delmania 9y ago
Where exactly did I say that was not the case? There are plenty of options for getting a college degree, and there are way to get a job at these companies with needing. However, if you're going to try to get one be sending in your resume, expect to get turned down without a degree. Beyond that, software development is plagued by this mindset that college degrees are useless and that only self taught people are worth looking into. I've worked with many college educated people who can't write good code, and I've worked with many self-taught people who really don't understand what they're doing. The best has always been a person who went to school and then continued on learning after the fact.
- DarronWyke 9y ago
  >Beyond that, software development is plagued by this mindset that college degrees are useless and that only self taught people are worth looking into. Ugh, yes. I've worked for a leading SIM and smart card manufacturer and they required a 4-year degree to even get in the door. I interviewed countless people, including some who were able to answer some quite technical questions that others couldn't. And many of those had to get disqualified since we found out during the interview process that they didn't have a degree. There were so many degree holders there that didn't know what the hell they were doing, and it was obvious.
  - dimman 9y ago
    One doesn't prove the other, that's my point. The only thing that can be said is that a degree doesn't prove if someone fits a position or not, it only proves they've finished an education. I've also been in the field for many years and held several interviews. My takeaway, to put it a bit clumsy: "knowledge is easy to fix, mindset and experience not as easy."
    - DarronWyke 9y ago
      As I told someone over Twitter the other day: mindset isn't something that can be readily taught, which is why STEM is still so in-demand with a gross labor shortage. For most people it's something you either innately have or don't have. But yeah. I was reinforcing your point, not being counter.
- dimman 9y ago
  I was referring to "If you're not willing to put in the work...". Some people are more than willing to put in the work but there are things in life that might hinder them from doing so at the time. People take a break in their studies for (various) personal reasons and some end up working in the field despite never finishing to get a degree. "...expect to get turned down without a degree" and "...software development is plagued by this mindset that college degrees are useless ..." My point is that there's a middle way. Only looking at degress is stupid because it doesn't guarantee anything other than that they got a degree. With that in mind it doesn't make sense to instantly disqualify people without a degree either.

wavefunction 9y ago

I had to leave college early due to a family thing and start working to contribute. That was eighteen years ago, and I've put in so much work because I run into attitudes like yours. Of course, in the past twenty four hours I've created an app and potential side-business from a technology stack I had absolutely no experience in any of it just to prove to a potential employer I can do 'front-end' stuff for them. The average developer can't even CSS, don't even play with that 'degrees are the ultimate arbiter' mess.

Delmania 9y ago
> Of course, in the past twenty four hours I've created an app and potential side-business from a technology stack I had absolutely no experience in any of it just to prove to a potential employer I can do 'front-end' stuff for them. This tells me you're wasting your time and potential. There are other ways to get a job.
- wavefunction 9y ago
  They didn't request it, I just didn't have any direct professional experience with React/Redux or the Python ecosystem, which are the lion's share of front-end positions in my area. I've gotten a lot of immediate 'passes' from recruiters unfortunately. Thanks for your reply though, I agree with you but then I run into reality and the need to pay bills.
eli_gottlieb 9y ago
>The average developer can't even CSS, What do you mean by that? How sophisticated is it to "do CSS"? When I've dealt with it, you basically look at the inspector and at your CSS libraries of preexisting classes, and basically do a combination of attaching classes and writing new ones with custom styles until you get it all to look right. What should I be looking to learn?
- CydeWeys 9y ago
  He means do it well. There's a lot to doing CSS well, and frankly I just don't have any interest in learning all the ins and outs. It's not a fun platform to work in, it's very fiddly, and it's not exactly programming either. There's an art-form to doing amazing pixel perfect web designs, and I really respect the people who are good at it. That's not me though, and it's never going to be me.

Datenstrom 9y ago

Being self taught I haven't learned a single thing in college. Besides networking I do not see any advantage. > If you're not willing to put in the work Why should anyone who already knows everything for a degree have to waste 4-6 years of their life?

Delmania 9y ago
I'm sure you don't know everything. Looking at your profile, I see the words "technician" so I am thinking you were trained at some point.
- Datenstrom 9y ago
  Yes the Navy "trained" me by saying "here are 20,000 pages of documentation on the E-2 Airborne Early Warning aircraft avionics, now go fix it". That has nothing to do with my CS studies, of which I have learned nothing from college and could have CLEPed a BS degree on day one if it was possible and moved on to a masters where I should have been initially placed. > I'm sure you don't know everything. I never claimed I knew everything.
  - barry-cotter 9y ago
    It was in fact possible to go straight to a Master’s in Software Engineering. Oxford’s distance Master’s will take experience in place of a degree. https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/softeng/ https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/softeng/
    - klibertp 9y ago
      Is it still possible somewhere, somehow?
      - barry-cotter 9y ago
        Yes, the programme is still open, and will be for tyhe foreseeable future.

throwme211345 9y ago

That is complete crap. Programmers have the same ladder as professional athletes. You can be amazing at 17 or 36 without collegiate training and indoctrination.