3 ms·

>When we're talking about voter disenfranchisement, though, we're not talking about mail-in ballots. We're talking about people showing up at polling stations,

>When we're talking about voter disenfranchisement, though, we're not talking about mail-in ballots. We're talking about people showing up at polling stations, and being unable to vote. A counted ballot cast by an ineligible voter disenfranchises a eligible voter. How is that less of an issue than preventing someone from casting a ballot in the first place? If the second is a concern then the first should be also.

vkou 9y ago
It's not an issue. People passing laws that disenfranchise voters aren't doing it in states with mail-in ballots. Your examples of voter fraud are in a mail-in ballot state. Please provide equivalent, widespread, impactfull, examples in an in-person voting state. You won't because you can't. Never mind that adding an extra vote to a voting pool does not have the same effect as denying a person the right to vote. Stealing half a penny from a million people is not viewed the same as stealing $5,000 from one person. Perhaps it should be, but its not.
- wang_li 9y ago
  I'm not in favor of preventing legal voters from voting, yet one could just as easily say that you cannot provide an example where preventing people without ID from voting would have widespread impact on the results of an election. >Never mind that adding an extra vote to a voting pool does not have the same effect as denying a person the right to vote. It has exactly that effect, unless you are saying that allowing a person to vote and then removing that person's ballot from the ballot box has no effect on their right to vote. Is that what you are saying? Otherwise every ineligible vote for one candidate nullifies a lawful vote for a competing candidate.
- masonic 9y ago
  You won't because you can't. A Freedom of Information Act disclosure showed Chicago had more votes than voters in 2016 elections: 1,101,178 voters, 1,115,664 votes cast[2]. Detroit: voting machines in more than one third of precints recorded more votes than there were voters! In California, 11 counties have more registered voters than voting age citizens. A few other examples: https://www.theepochtimes.com/in-los-angeles-144-voters-for-every-100-voting-age-citizens_2277108.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/in-los-angeles-144-voters-for-... https://www.theepochtimes.com/chicago-had-more-votes-than-voters-in-2016-elections_2288622.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/chicago-had-more-votes-than-vo... https://www.theepochtimes.com/stream-of-voter-fraud-cases-emerge-from-2016-elections_2286530.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/stream-of-voter-fraud-cases-em... https://www.theepochtimes.com/official-thousands-of-indiana-voter-registrations-altered_2174089.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/official-thousands-of-indiana-...
  - vkou 9y ago
    Is this a problem of people voting when they aren't supposed to, or a problem with the voting machines, or the vote counting process? Unless the level of criminality by members the public in Chicago is truly mind-boggling (Thousands of people casting dozens of votes each), I'd speculate that the problem lies higher up the tree of elected and unelected office. Or perhaps in the counting methodology used to come up with the number of votes, and number of voters. [1] But your citation is only corroborated by tabloids, so we will never know. [1] https://www.snopes.com/more-votes-than-voters-in-detroit/ https://www.snopes.com/more-votes-than-voters-in-detroit/
    - masonic 9y ago
      Unless the level of criminality by members the public in Chicago is truly mind-boggling It is and has been for over a century. The tradition of "walking-around money"[1], where public funds are actually used for cash bribes on the streets, is one obvious example. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_money
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> If the second is a concern then the first should be also You're ignoring observed magnitudes. If hundreds are dying because cars are going too fast, but two are potentially being saved because the ambulances can go faster, that doesn't make the issues equal.

vkou 9y ago

It's not an issue. People passing laws that disenfranchise voters aren't doing it in states with mail-in ballots. Your examples of voter fraud are in a mail-in ballot state. Please provide equivalent, widespread, impactfull, examples in an in-person voting state. You won't because you can't. Never mind that adding an extra vote to a voting pool does not have the same effect as denying a person the right to vote. Stealing half a penny from a million people is not viewed the same as stealing $5,000 from one person. Perhaps it should be, but its not.

wang_li 9y ago
I'm not in favor of preventing legal voters from voting, yet one could just as easily say that you cannot provide an example where preventing people without ID from voting would have widespread impact on the results of an election. >Never mind that adding an extra vote to a voting pool does not have the same effect as denying a person the right to vote. It has exactly that effect, unless you are saying that allowing a person to vote and then removing that person's ballot from the ballot box has no effect on their right to vote. Is that what you are saying? Otherwise every ineligible vote for one candidate nullifies a lawful vote for a competing candidate.
masonic 9y ago
You won't because you can't. A Freedom of Information Act disclosure showed Chicago had more votes than voters in 2016 elections: 1,101,178 voters, 1,115,664 votes cast[2]. Detroit: voting machines in more than one third of precints recorded more votes than there were voters! In California, 11 counties have more registered voters than voting age citizens. A few other examples: https://www.theepochtimes.com/in-los-angeles-144-voters-for-every-100-voting-age-citizens_2277108.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/in-los-angeles-144-voters-for-... https://www.theepochtimes.com/chicago-had-more-votes-than-voters-in-2016-elections_2288622.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/chicago-had-more-votes-than-vo... https://www.theepochtimes.com/stream-of-voter-fraud-cases-emerge-from-2016-elections_2286530.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/stream-of-voter-fraud-cases-em... https://www.theepochtimes.com/official-thousands-of-indiana-voter-registrations-altered_2174089.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/official-thousands-of-indiana-...
- vkou 9y ago
  Is this a problem of people voting when they aren't supposed to, or a problem with the voting machines, or the vote counting process? Unless the level of criminality by members the public in Chicago is truly mind-boggling (Thousands of people casting dozens of votes each), I'd speculate that the problem lies higher up the tree of elected and unelected office. Or perhaps in the counting methodology used to come up with the number of votes, and number of voters. [1] But your citation is only corroborated by tabloids, so we will never know. [1] https://www.snopes.com/more-votes-than-voters-in-detroit/ https://www.snopes.com/more-votes-than-voters-in-detroit/
  - masonic 9y ago
    Unless the level of criminality by members the public in Chicago is truly mind-boggling It is and has been for over a century. The tradition of "walking-around money"[1], where public funds are actually used for cash bribes on the streets, is one obvious example. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_money

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

> If the second is a concern then the first should be also You're ignoring observed magnitudes. If hundreds are dying because cars are going too fast, but two are potentially being saved because the ambulances can go faster, that doesn't make the issues equal.