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The 'Manhattan of the Desert': Shibam, Yemen's Ancient Skyscraper City (2015)
- davidw 9y ago* Doesn't respect parking minimums * Doesn't respect sebacks * Inadequate green space * Floor-area ratio way beyond acceptable. Complete planning failure!
- StudentStuff 9y agoPlus its waaay too walkable! 60% of each lot should be disposed of with parking, plus a few percent on grass that the city will fine you for not watering. Shibam is a total urban planning fail!
- tonmoy 9y agoWhat does “seback” mean? I couldn’t find anything in 30 seconds of googling
- josephpmay 9y agoThe idea that the entire building isn't built directly on the street/sidewalk. For example, many cities have rules that the first few floors can be built to the lot line, but then anything taller needs to be "set back" a number of feet. In theory, this should allow for more light to reach the street, but it often results in buildings that look like wedding cakes and waste a huge amount of space.
- lotsofpulp 9y agoSetback is how far the building has to be set back from the road.
- Mz 9y agoMost likely a typo for setback: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setback https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setback
- gwern 9y agoReminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Gimignano https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Gimignano or the other Italian city-states like Florence. Same apparent dynamics, too: lots of insular clans creating little fortresses for their extended families while competing economically & socially inside the density of the city, always teetering on the edge of civil war.
- vtange 9y agoIf you like the idea of clusters of building complexes you'd also find interest in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City
- gwern 9y agoYeah, Kowloon is cool but driven by different dynamics. Closer to Arcosanti or Tokyo than Shibam.
- wdewind 9y agoWould you mind expanding on this comment? I want to understand what you mean :)
- jacquesm 9y agoWhen Gwern expands on a comment expect a book length article with everything remotely relevant cited and leaving nothing but a wasteland for future researchers.
- nashashmi 9y agoI had to look up Gwern: I found this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5660220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5660220 fascinating!
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- bdamm 9y agoIt would be interesting to learn how the builders decided on these specific structures. I note a few attributes: * Banked foundations. * Small windows at the bottom, large windows at the top. * Tall doors at the bottom. Specifically, how did they gauge the thickness of the walls and the structural properties of the mud? Was the planning based on a published code that took into account the expected building materials? Did they have occupancy limits?
- pchristensen 9y agoThe city is 1700 years old - I'm sure they had time to figure this stuff out.
- bdamm 9y agoYes, of course. So where's the documentation and does anyone readily know the answers?
- mseebach 9y agoAlso, literal survivor bias: The buildings that weren't well made simply ceased to exist, and the ones still standing today are the ones that were well built, whether by design or accident.
- idlewords 9y agoThese are single-family dwellings, for an extended definition of "family". The top floor is a lounge for men, the bottom levels are kitchen and storage, while the middle levels are sleeping quarters segregated by sex. Part of the reason for the tower construction is to help cool the structure by pulling air through it.
- agumonkey 9y agoQuite surrealist
- excitom 9y agoGrowing up in the NYC area I saw many 4 to 6 story apartments, built mostly before elevators became common and practical. The upper floors were considered undesirable due to all the stairs. Eight stories seems like quite a lot.
- rsynnott 9y agoThe Romans had some as tall as 9 stories; the top ones were indeed undesirable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insula_(building) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insula_(building) For ancient urban dwellers, though, you’d have to weigh the inconvenience of climbing stairs against the inconvenience of walking miles in from some notional suburb. Certainly in the case of Rome, there was really no option for most people.
- rurban 9y agoThe oldest appartments in Venice from the middle ages also had 8 floors, made of wood and they where very low height. They are also still in use.
- kjs3 9y agoUpper floors in this case are cooler.
- arethuza 9y agoEdinburgh had residential buildings up to 14 or 15 stories in the 17th century - land inside the city wall was very limited and building outside the wall was unpopular due to the threat from England. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Edinburgh#Union_of_the_Crowns_to_Parliamentary_Union_.2817th_century.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Edinburgh#Union_of_...
- pjc50 9y agoAlthough due to the geology of the place you can "cheat" this by building up a hill, it's not quite the same as building a freestanding 15 storey building. There are several places I know round the Bridges that have street level entrances four floors apart.
- Whiteskin_Kanye 9y agoHow hard is it to visit?
- justinzollars 9y agoYou don't want to go there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_Civil_War_(2015%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_Civil_War_(2015%E2%80%9... http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/23/in-yemen-a-saudi-war-fought-with-u-s-help/ http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/23/in-yemen-a-saudi-war-fou...
- z2210558 9y agoIt was easyish to visit around 10 years ago - though there was a problem with Al Qaeda. The civil war doesn't really seem to be a problem in Shibam iteself, (part of Hadhramaut, in the middle of the country, well in "red" territory in this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_Civil_War_(2015%E2%80%93present)#/media/File:Yemeni_Civil_War.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_Civil_War_(2015%E2%80%9... Your biggest problem would probably be getting into Yemen itself. You'd need to get to the port of Mukalla and go overland from there.
- azeotropic 9y agoRoman insulae were taller centuries earlier. I can't imagine why anyone would credit Shibam with the earliest high rise apartment buildings.
- andys627 9y agoCuz there are pictures for the FB posts!
- rsynnott 9y agoI don’t think the article is. However, it’s still there (there’s only one insula left), and it’s more uniformly made up of tall buildings than anywhere in Rome likely was.
- azeotropic 9y agoFrom this fine article: "Credited as the home of the first highrise apartment buildings, Shibam has become a symbol for the rise and resilience of middle eastern culture in the desolation of the surrounding desert." There were 46,600 insulae in Rome at the time Shibam was built, and only 1790 private homes.
- sologoub 9y agoThis claim: “Credited as the home of the first highrise apartment buildings, Shibam has become a symbol for the rise and resilience of middle eastern culture in the desolation of the surrounding desert.” appears to be false as Roman Insula reportedly reached over 9 stories high and predate these buildings: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insula_(building)# https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insula_(building)#
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- abuabdullah 9y agoOver 9 stories? Your source says: "The insulae could be up to six or seven stories high, and despite height restrictions in the Imperial era, a few reached eight or nine stories"
- sologoub 9y ago"High-rise apartments flourished in classical antiquity. Ancient Roman insulae there and in other imperial cities reached 10 and more storeys. Beginning with Augustus (r. 30 BCE-14 CE), several emperors attempted to establish limits of 20–25 m for multi-storey buildings, but met with only limited success." [Reference: Gregory S. Aldrete: "Daily Life in the Roman City: Rome, Pompeii and Ostia", 2004]
- mmjaa 9y agoInsulae aren't necessarily sky-scrapers, though, right? They kind of build up on a larger composite base, and are a bit more massive - and lower in general - whereas the Shibam seem to have a smaller base, but taller reach, as a whole.
- cel1ne 9y agoToo bad the Yemen, home to the oldest cities in the world, is being completely destroyed in the civil war and seeing millions of cholera infections by now. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/23/world/middleeast/yemen-cholera-humanitarian-crisis.html http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/23/world/middleea...
- singularity2001 9y agoCivil War? I thought they are currently bombarded by Saudi and American rockets?
- zamber 9y agoPretty much on point. Apparently US is involved to fix relations with Saudis after the nuclear deal with Iran. > The United States is selling the Saudi monarchy missiles and warplanes, assisting in the coalition’s targeting selection for aerial bombings and actively providing midair refueling for Saudi and United Arab Emirates jets that conduct indiscriminate airstrikes — the leading cause of civilian casualties. Meanwhile, the Saudi coalition is starving millions of Yemenis as a grotesque tactic of war. via https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/10/opinion/yemen-war-unconstitutional.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/10/opinion/yemen-war-unconst...
- tyu100 9y agoYemen has been in a civil war for years which prompted Saudi intervention. Al Qaeda offshoots, Iranian-backed Houthi rebels, massive drought and etc..
- Freestyler_3 9y agoWould be nice to see which of the buildings were from 1700 years ago and which are from 500 years ago.
- stigi 9y agoI had the chance to visit Shibam in 2005. AMA