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That's not the only form of vote fraud. Non-citizens voting is illegal and happens[1]. Does it happen in massive numbers? No idea, probably not. To what extent,

That's not the only form of vote fraud. Non-citizens voting is illegal and happens[1]. Does it happen in massive numbers? No idea, probably not. To what extent, though, does it compare to eligible voters who don't have ID, which is a common complaint about voter ID laws, which are struck down in the courts all the time. 1: https://www.justice.gov/file/3835pdf/download https://www.justice.gov/file/3835pdf/download

ch4s3 9y ago
Non-citizens voting is still in person voter fraud. I'm sure it has happened, but it is vanishingly rare, you citation is about 1 person. There is simply no incentive to commit that crime. Even less so if you're a non-citizen, because if you're caught you'll be deported. Very few people commit crimes where they have nothing to gain, a lot to lose, and a high chance of being caught. It is almost a non-issue. There is literally no evidence that in person voter fraud poses a threat to the integrity of US elections either local or national. It is a red herring.
- wang_li 9y ago
  >I'm sure it has happened, but it is vanishingly rare, you citation is about 1 person. Yes. I found a single link to to illustrate that it does happen, not to quantify how much it happens. Several people have replied saying that it doesn't happen at all. When I link to sources showing it does they switch to saying it doesn't happen enough to matter. Well, a group in Virginia found that 1852 ballots cast by non-citizen voters between 2011 and 2017. Does that matter? Maybe, maybe not. But it's on the same scale as people who would be inconvenienced to have to procure an ID to satisfy voter ID requirements. Two different surveys have found that ~13% of illegal immigrants from Mexico have registered to vote. Given the impact doing so will have on having their immigration status normalized it doesn't make sense that they would register, but by their own admission they have. Rational or not, it happens. It seems in every election cycle in King County, Washington people mail in ballots of recently deceased relatives. Again, it makes no sense because it's a deeply blue county and one extra ballot isn't going to swing the election. But they do it. >There is literally no evidence that in person voter fraud poses a threat to the integrity of US elections either local or national. It is a red herring. By definition even a single ineligible voter destroys the integrity of an election.
  - ch4s3 9y ago
    > Yes. I found a single link to to illustrate that it does happen A single instance is an anecdote, not data. You should not make policy by anecdote. >Two different surveys have found that ~13% of illegal immigrants from Mexico have registered to vote. Which surveys? By whom? I've never heard that before, and I follow the issue. I'm tempted to call this an outright lie. > It seems in every election cycle in King County, Washington people mail in ballots of recently deceased relatives. Again, that's not in person voter fraud, which doesn't exit as a real problem. That's mail in ballot fraud, which none of the voter suppression laws and purges target. I previously said twice, mail in ballot fraud is the only way voter fraud practically ever happens in the US. You are willfully trying to obscure that fact. > By definition even a single ineligible voter destroys the integrity of an election. No it doesn't. The margin of error on counting votes is at a state wide level is often measured in 1000s of votes. A single fraudulent vote is noise statistically. You are lying and pandering to fear to support draconian and ridiculous voter roll purges. You are presenting weak arguments and no real evidence. You are trading in anecdote and fear.
- masonic 9y ago
  There is simply no incentive to commit that crime. There is exactly the same incentive as that to suppress a vote for the other side.
  - ch4s3 9y ago
    That's completely untrue. If you can effectively as a legislative body identify demographics that reliably vote for your opposition and can identify their preferred voting methods you can target them with legislation or voter roll purges. The North Carolina state government was found by district courts to have done exactly that. The motivation is clear; stay in power. The path is similarly clear; purge your opponents supporters from the voting rolls, remove the voting mechanisms they use e.g. early voting, and require hard to obtain ID to vote, making exception for you own constituents e.g. Texas' allowance for concealed carry permits. So we have both motivation, means, and evidence of states doing this. What more do you need?

ch4s3 9y ago

Non-citizens voting is still in person voter fraud. I'm sure it has happened, but it is vanishingly rare, you citation is about 1 person. There is simply no incentive to commit that crime. Even less so if you're a non-citizen, because if you're caught you'll be deported. Very few people commit crimes where they have nothing to gain, a lot to lose, and a high chance of being caught. It is almost a non-issue. There is literally no evidence that in person voter fraud poses a threat to the integrity of US elections either local or national. It is a red herring.

wang_li 9y ago
>I'm sure it has happened, but it is vanishingly rare, you citation is about 1 person. Yes. I found a single link to to illustrate that it does happen, not to quantify how much it happens. Several people have replied saying that it doesn't happen at all. When I link to sources showing it does they switch to saying it doesn't happen enough to matter. Well, a group in Virginia found that 1852 ballots cast by non-citizen voters between 2011 and 2017. Does that matter? Maybe, maybe not. But it's on the same scale as people who would be inconvenienced to have to procure an ID to satisfy voter ID requirements. Two different surveys have found that ~13% of illegal immigrants from Mexico have registered to vote. Given the impact doing so will have on having their immigration status normalized it doesn't make sense that they would register, but by their own admission they have. Rational or not, it happens. It seems in every election cycle in King County, Washington people mail in ballots of recently deceased relatives. Again, it makes no sense because it's a deeply blue county and one extra ballot isn't going to swing the election. But they do it. >There is literally no evidence that in person voter fraud poses a threat to the integrity of US elections either local or national. It is a red herring. By definition even a single ineligible voter destroys the integrity of an election.
- ch4s3 9y ago
  > Yes. I found a single link to to illustrate that it does happen A single instance is an anecdote, not data. You should not make policy by anecdote. >Two different surveys have found that ~13% of illegal immigrants from Mexico have registered to vote. Which surveys? By whom? I've never heard that before, and I follow the issue. I'm tempted to call this an outright lie. > It seems in every election cycle in King County, Washington people mail in ballots of recently deceased relatives. Again, that's not in person voter fraud, which doesn't exit as a real problem. That's mail in ballot fraud, which none of the voter suppression laws and purges target. I previously said twice, mail in ballot fraud is the only way voter fraud practically ever happens in the US. You are willfully trying to obscure that fact. > By definition even a single ineligible voter destroys the integrity of an election. No it doesn't. The margin of error on counting votes is at a state wide level is often measured in 1000s of votes. A single fraudulent vote is noise statistically. You are lying and pandering to fear to support draconian and ridiculous voter roll purges. You are presenting weak arguments and no real evidence. You are trading in anecdote and fear.
masonic 9y ago
There is simply no incentive to commit that crime. There is exactly the same incentive as that to suppress a vote for the other side.
- ch4s3 9y ago
  That's completely untrue. If you can effectively as a legislative body identify demographics that reliably vote for your opposition and can identify their preferred voting methods you can target them with legislation or voter roll purges. The North Carolina state government was found by district courts to have done exactly that. The motivation is clear; stay in power. The path is similarly clear; purge your opponents supporters from the voting rolls, remove the voting mechanisms they use e.g. early voting, and require hard to obtain ID to vote, making exception for you own constituents e.g. Texas' allowance for concealed carry permits. So we have both motivation, means, and evidence of states doing this. What more do you need?